Hello,
Well, i´m brooding over the service of earlier BT-7s with straight turret during the first years of WWII.
On the web are only just a few photos of them on east front.
Most of the BT-7 which were in service against the germans were the later types with the angled turret.
But,how extensive were earlier types used?
:(
Evgenij
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BT-7 (Mod.35) during WWII?
ejasonk
Joined: October 14, 2007
KitMaker: 314 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 03:21 AM UTC
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 08:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Hello,
Well, i´m brooding over the service of earlier BT-7s with straight turret during the first years of WWII.
On the web are only just a few photos of them on east front.
Most of the BT-7 which were in service against the germans were the later types with the angled turret.
But,how extensive were earlier types used?
:(
Evgenij
The main problem with earlier Soviet tanks in 1941 was the spare parts situation. In order to give Stalin the extravagant production statistics he demanded throughout the 1930's, something had to give, and almost no parts were set aside to repair existing vehicles--nearly everything went into new vehicles. When Germany attacked, the Soviet Union had the largest tank fleet in the world, but half of it didn't run, and half of the remainder were in need of major overhaul and on the verge of breakdown. The reason the later production models of the BT-7 are more common in photos is that more of them still had functional transmissions and engines. The older tanks hadn't been scrapped--they were just sitting in storage depots waiting for parts. Of course, some early BT-7's were still around, if their mileage was low enough, but as you've noticed, they were less common.
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 15, 2010 - 01:48 PM UTC
Gerald, while I would agree with the spirit of your comments, I am not so sure I would agree with the details of it. The T-34 had a bad reputation to start with, especiallu with the transmission, but that was just getting figured out and a new transmission was being introduced (I am not sure where they exaclty were in development at precisely the moment the Germans invaded) when the Germans invaded. The Russians had a LOT of equipment captured simply because the commanders where waiting for orders what to do when they were surrounded and compelled to surrender. A lot of tanks were abandoned early because of lack of fuel or ammo as well. And many BT's were simply destroyed while doing rear guard or attack/counter attack. I might say 20% of the Russian tank force was down at the start of the war, but 50% seems too high. The Germans seemed to have no problem putting the BT series into service against partisans etc...
As for service of the BT series, I think you could probably find some examples of just about anything through the spring of 1941 (Especially in the defense of Moscow and Leningrad). The Russians were hard up for tanks and they were just getting their logistical, industrial, and military situations in line in early '41 and phasing the badly outdated BT's for T-34's, although I believe there were BT-7's in the Far East facing the japanese even in 1945.
As for service of the BT series, I think you could probably find some examples of just about anything through the spring of 1941 (Especially in the defense of Moscow and Leningrad). The Russians were hard up for tanks and they were just getting their logistical, industrial, and military situations in line in early '41 and phasing the badly outdated BT's for T-34's, although I believe there were BT-7's in the Far East facing the japanese even in 1945.
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
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Posted: Saturday, September 18, 2010 - 11:46 AM UTC
Just quoting Steve Zaloga's figures on availability of equipment in June, 1941. I don't personally rummage around in ex-Soviet state archives. The colossal number of BT and T-26 tanks produced during the 1930's would represent a significant percentage of these worn out machines. Many BT-7 tanks produced in 1936 and used for training for five years would be in dire need of rebuilding by the summer of 1941. Obviously many were still serviceable, and occasionally, one even sees a BT-2 in wartime photos. But the later variants with the sloped turret sides were more plentiful when the war began.
Quoted Text
Gerald, while I would agree with the spirit of your comments, I am not so sure I would agree with the details of it. The T-34 had a bad reputation to start with, especiallu with the transmission, but that was just getting figured out and a new transmission was being introduced (I am not sure where they exaclty were in development at precisely the moment the Germans invaded) when the Germans invaded. The Russians had a LOT of equipment captured simply because the commanders where waiting for orders what to do when they were surrounded and compelled to surrender. A lot of tanks were abandoned early because of lack of fuel or ammo as well. And many BT's were simply destroyed while doing rear guard or attack/counter attack. I might say 20% of the Russian tank force was down at the start of the war, but 50% seems too high. The Germans seemed to have no problem putting the BT series into service against partisans etc...
As for service of the BT series, I think you could probably find some examples of just about anything through the spring of 1941 (Especially in the defense of Moscow and Leningrad). The Russians were hard up for tanks and they were just getting their logistical, industrial, and military situations in line in early '41 and phasing the badly outdated BT's for T-34's, although I believe there were BT-7's in the Far East facing the japanese even in 1945.
vonHengest
Joined: June 29, 2010
KitMaker: 5,854 posts
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Posted: Saturday, September 18, 2010 - 12:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
, although I believe there were BT-7's in the Far East facing the japanese even in 1945.
I remember reading a few texts that supported this, so I believe I can second this information. I was actually considering a diorama based on this, but think I am going to focus on Manchuria in 1939.
The rest of your commentary makes a lot of sense based on what little I've been able to see and read. It's great to have you as part of the community Jacques
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Monday, September 20, 2010 - 03:17 PM UTC
Gerald, can you quote me the resources of Zaloga you are using? The only ones I have been able to locate are from model magazines from the 1980's. Baraytinskiy's Book "Light Tanks" is the most modern and up to date, although it may still not be complete as new information is showing up in trickles on a almost monthly basis for one Soviet/Russian military vehicle or another... 
A couple of good web resources I ran across were:
This one has a nice set of "color plates"
This one has a LOT of info. Be a bit carefull though...the BT-7A is called the BT-8 and there are several other "sub-variants" that might be confusing.
Production #'s from Baryatinskiy:
BT-2 - 620
BT-5 - 1,884
BT-7 (Combat version, no radio) - 2,596
BT-7 (Command version with radio) - 2,017
BT-7A - 155 (133 fielded with 11 having a radio)
BT-7M - 788
On June 1st, 1941 there were 7,549 BT tanks of all types in service. Some BT-5 and BT-7/7M were still in use in '42 and '43, and while some where on the front lines, most were to be found in stabelized areas. Last use, and there is a photo in the Baryatinskiy book, of the BT-7 was in Manchuria in 1945.
I have not yet found any source that claimed the BT series had any service limiting factors or that they were prone to breakdown or in need of repair on June 1, 1941. They were considered to be "place holders" until the new T-34 and KV series tanks were made available but reliable enough. The only downside I noted was that the rubber on the roadwheels tended to peel off after ~400 miles of use, especially at high speeds, and it was thus recognized that the tracks should be left on for use to extend their life.
A couple of good web resources I ran across were:
This one has a nice set of "color plates"
This one has a LOT of info. Be a bit carefull though...the BT-7A is called the BT-8 and there are several other "sub-variants" that might be confusing.
Production #'s from Baryatinskiy:
BT-2 - 620
BT-5 - 1,884
BT-7 (Combat version, no radio) - 2,596
BT-7 (Command version with radio) - 2,017
BT-7A - 155 (133 fielded with 11 having a radio)
BT-7M - 788
On June 1st, 1941 there were 7,549 BT tanks of all types in service. Some BT-5 and BT-7/7M were still in use in '42 and '43, and while some where on the front lines, most were to be found in stabelized areas. Last use, and there is a photo in the Baryatinskiy book, of the BT-7 was in Manchuria in 1945.
I have not yet found any source that claimed the BT series had any service limiting factors or that they were prone to breakdown or in need of repair on June 1, 1941. They were considered to be "place holders" until the new T-34 and KV series tanks were made available but reliable enough. The only downside I noted was that the rubber on the roadwheels tended to peel off after ~400 miles of use, especially at high speeds, and it was thus recognized that the tracks should be left on for use to extend their life.
pgb3476
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 977 posts
Armorama: 976 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 04:03 AM UTC
Don't forget that they were also used for the invasion of Poland which I'm working on for a same diorama going through a frontier gate.....of course with the polish Eagle on the gate....
T34
Joined: April 27, 2006
KitMaker: 79 posts
Armorama: 60 posts
Posted: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 05:06 AM UTC
If you were attacked you would throw everything that could move and shoot at your enemy. That's what the Russians did.
Whether it is obsolete or not, if it's useful use it. Especially if it's a threat to Moscow.
Whether it is obsolete or not, if it's useful use it. Especially if it's a threat to Moscow.
Emeritus
Joined: March 30, 2004
KitMaker: 2,845 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 - 06:01 AM UTC
A number of BT-7 M1935s were also captured by Finnish troops at the initial stages of the 1941 attack and were used against their former owners until early 1942.
Some continued their career further modified into the less-than-stellar BT-42 assault guns.
Some continued their career further modified into the less-than-stellar BT-42 assault guns.
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