Gents,

When I was in Leeuwarden, Holland a few years back, I visited their local museum, which had a large WWII content in it because they were occupied for almost the entire war. I picked up a post card which is a photo of Sherman tanks in a row on a street on 15 April 1945. It doesn't state unit, and I am wondering if it were Canadians. The lead tank is a Sherman Firefly 1c Hybrid with the turret turned around to show a large number 43 in what looks like white paint. It has type 54 tracks all over it for armour as well. Has anyone seen this photo before and can tell me if it is indeed Canadian tanks or not?

TIA

Brad

ps: I'll see if I can scan it.

Where was the number 43? On the back of the turret, the front or the side? How big were the numbers? Scanning would be useful.

Hi Paul, It was on the back of the stowage box of the turret, and appear to be fairly large in size, pretty much the same size as the height of the stowage box.

Brad

Hope this works:

So I guess this one's a mystery then??

Brad

Dear all,
The Netherlands, at least the northern and eastern part, east of the IJsselmeer, above the rivers Rhine and Waal, was liberated by Canadian troops mainly. It was the Canadian 9th Infantry Brigade that liberated Leeuwarden.
But: also Polish and French troops participated.
Hopefully, I have given you a lead!
By the way: Dutch are still enthusiastically celebrating their liberation, hosting many, now a days very old, veterans from over seas at the beginning of the month of May each year. Not seldomly, these gentlemen are driven around in very well kept vehicles from 'those days' ( Have a look at the site of 'Keep them rolling')

this one seems to be in the same street

click

according to the caption its canadian and the picture was taken in the engelsestraat.

and this one is taken just a bit down the road on the engelseplein

click

street still looks quite the same btw

click

edit: added some more and fixed the links

edit2:



according to this memorial plaque Leeuwarden was liberated by the royal canadian dragoons

Hi,

I took a picture of that plaque when my wife and I were there in 2009. Lovely city too, we really enjoyed the visit and are planning to visit again soon.

Brad

Unfortunately on none of those three photos can you see anything that positively identifies the Sherman unit in the first photo.

That said, the tank in Remco's first photo is almost certainly from the same unit. The use of large tac numbers on turret bustles was not widespread. It wasn't unknown, just not widespread. The two tanks are likely from the same squadron & the same regiment - they both have circle sqd'n markings on the radio box, the colours of both don't look yellow, but could be blue or red and both circles are filled in black [another non-universal distinguisher].

So we're looking for teh first or second regiment of an armoured brigade in that area at that time. Certainly all of 1st Cdn Army was in the Netherlands in April 1945, but if the Dutch web site is right about Remco's photo, then Brad's photo is almost certainly the same Cdn unit.

That unit isn't the Royal Canadian Dragoons, (RCD) as they were a corps level armoured car unit and held no tanks. However if 1 Cdn Corps was the unit in that area, then that limits the choices even further as to who owns the tanks. It would more likely have been a unit of either 5 Cdn Arm'd Div or of 1st or 2nd Cdn Armour Brigades. I'd have to look through my war establishment books at home to narrow the range further.

HTH

Paul

Thanks Paul. That helps a lot. I knew that the RCD was a corps level armoured car unit and held no tanks, but I could find anything else at the local museum there that led me to either the 5 Cdn Arm'd Div or of 1st or 2nd Cdn Armour Brigades being there. If you do find out anything more, I'd appreciate hearing from you. I think you replied to my post on Missing Lynx and that possibly the 27th Armoured Regiment Sherbrooke Fusiliers maybe possible?


Thanks
Brad

OK, so I've looked at my references adn the order for seniority as refelcted int he sqdn markings is red-sr., yellow- 2nd sr., and blue- jr. The circle seen on the sides and back of the radio box on both Fireflies indicates "C" Sqdn and the colour appears to be darker than yellow, so we're looking for a sr or jr regiment in the brigade.

If the belief from the previous discussion holds water, i.e. that it was a tank brigade supporting infantry, then either 1st Hussars, the Sr regiment or the Sherbrooks, the Jr Regiment, are possible, if that brigade is 2nd Cdn Armoured. If it was 1st Cdn Armoured, it could be from The Ontario Reg't or the Calgary Tanks,

I can't remember if there were other indications that this was the Sherbrooks.

There is only so much you can get form the photo, I'm afraid.

Paul

Thanks Paul, I appreciate the info.

Brad

Hi Remco, any idea what type of scout car in in behind the tank in the first photo that you supplied in the first link?

TIA

Brad

gotta say i'm not really an expert when it comes to vehicles and equipment of the western allies, but when i compare it to the picture below i think it might be a Humber Scout Car Mark II. but there might be some other people with some more knowledge in this area who might shine some more light on this




here's another img from behind



the second one looks kinda ok, with the ridges in the front (i assume) stowage compartment, the slot in the engine deck and storage rack on the back fender.

edit: added some stuff

Hi there,

I believe you are correct. The only thing that is interesting is the windscreen frame.

Thanks for the reply and pics.
Brad

i dont think it's a windscreen frame, it looks to me that it is placed a bit more back then you would expect from a windscreen, think it's some frame added to pullsome tarp or camo net over or something, but as i said there are probably more qualified people then me on here who can say something about that

Hi Remco, You are probably right.

Brad

After some google-ing, i think it might be a valentine bridge layer, when i compare the sides of the bridge and the two quite large lighter stripes at the bottom of the vehicle which i assume are the two groups of three road wheels i think it might be a valentine, but as said above i am definitely no expert on allied material.

Bringing back and old post, is there any more info as the the CDN armoured unit in Leewaurden at that time??

euge

RCD Home page:
In early April of 1945, the 1st Canadian Army was advancing north through Holland against stiff resistance. The Germans fought stubbornly, knowing that defeat was only a matter of time.

Their escape routes to the east were blocked by the 4th Canadian and the 1st Polish Armoured Divisions. Having no other alternative, the Germans fell back on the North Sea. But here, their retreat was hampered by allied airborne troops who dropped behind enemy lines and seized bridges, ferries and airfields.

The Royal Canadian Dragoons were involved in wide, encircling movements that cut deep into enemy positions and guarded the flanks of the 2nd Division. On 11 April, the hard fought-for breakthrough of German lines was achieved.

There was now no opportunity for rest. At Mildam, “D” Squadron forced a bridgehead over the Fonyer Kanal during a bitter five-hour struggle. They were joined by “B” Squadron who fought a series of sharp local actions, capturing stores, equipment and prisoners. Actions of this nature continued for the next few days.

During the night of 14-15 April, word was received of bitter fighting in Leeuwarden between the Dutch Resistance forces and the German garrison. Immediately, “C” and “HQ” Squadrons set out to reinforce the Dutch patriots. They entered the City at 11:00 am in the fine drizzle of rain and found the streets deserted, except for groups of armed Dutchmen. The Dutch and Germans were still exchanging gunfire over the rooftops, but with the approach of the Staghounds and Dingos of the Dragoons, the Germans withdrew hastily. Cheering crowds soon filled the streets. National Flags were flown, and the Dutch embraced the Canadians.

The Dragoons, cheered and celebrated by the citizens, turned over the supplies and foodstuffs of the German occupation garrison. “HQ” Squadron remained in Leeuwarden while “C” Squadron moved east to assist “D” Squadron in the battle of Groningen.

So 4th CDN Armd Div or 1st Polish Armd.

Anthony

I didn't think the Dragoons had tanks, I thought that they were a recce regiment with armoured cars?

Brad

I am a new guy to armor, so this may or may not be of help bu I just rembered in a class I took about countries envoled in WWII toward the end. And I think I read somthing about Fort Garry Horses or somthing like that, was a candian tank unit that fought in Leewaurden and Gronigen and Bad somthing. So I cant recall exactly, But I did the class some months ago, also read about the 7th Armoured around Nimijen too.

Euge

Bumps up anyone have some more knowledge of this area and tank units tha were ther i would be grealy appreciated.

Reviving an old thread looking for more info.

Euge.