Hello,
My subject is the question of how to model an East German T-72. So far I know this question is not new, but I simply lost the overview of this this matter.
My main source is Steven Zalogas books about the T-72 from the year 1989 (Concord 1004). He described two types of East German T-72. The first models were in the 80s the so called T.72b while the later East germans were T-72G.
Can somebody tell me how to model this variants. So far I could read for the B variant is Verlinden hull necessary and the Patriota Turret. But what is with the later one? There was not the additional armour so that I would use Sp Design Front Plate. WHich turret is needed? The Miniarm or Verlinden turret.
Are there more changes to do???
here a link to some photos: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:T-72_tanks_in_East_German_service
Thanks in advance for your effort,
Cheers,
moritz
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How to model a East German T-72G
blabla
Joined: December 02, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 09:19 AM UTC
DerGeist
Joined: January 21, 2008
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Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 09:32 AM UTC
I was under the impression that the DDR only had M and M1 variants. I've never heard of a "G" variant before. The NVA T-72 at Munster is labeled M1 in fact. It has the standard rubber sideskirts and smoke launchers. This version can be built with Tamiya's T-72M kit.
Erik
Erik
blabla
Joined: December 02, 2006
KitMaker: 147 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 09:56 AM UTC
Thank you Erik,
the "G" was a code during the 80s. Later, after the Cold War the codes M and M1 became popular. The problem sometimes is that this "code-mix" can cause in chaos and I am a victim of this chaos.
When I am right informed the M had not the additional armour on the front of the hull?
Cheers
the "G" was a code during the 80s. Later, after the Cold War the codes M and M1 became popular. The problem sometimes is that this "code-mix" can cause in chaos and I am a victim of this chaos.
When I am right informed the M had not the additional armour on the front of the hull?
Cheers
Jimmy812
Joined: June 22, 2010
KitMaker: 57 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 10:09 AM UTC
Hi,
The nva used three differnt version of the t-72. The t-72 (with the optical range finder and with the side panels), the t-72m (with the laser rangefinder, smoke mortars and rubber sideskirts) and the t-72m1 ( with additinal armor on the turret front and the hullfront rubber sideskirt, smoke mortarsand laser rangefinder). The nva had also 31 t-72m without smoke mortars and 23 with additional armor on the hull front. There were also 75 original t-72 with smoke mortars, side skirts and armor on the hull front.
The variant wich is called t-72g by zaloga is the t-72m. So almost every combination is possible.
The nva used three differnt version of the t-72. The t-72 (with the optical range finder and with the side panels), the t-72m (with the laser rangefinder, smoke mortars and rubber sideskirts) and the t-72m1 ( with additinal armor on the turret front and the hullfront rubber sideskirt, smoke mortarsand laser rangefinder). The nva had also 31 t-72m without smoke mortars and 23 with additional armor on the hull front. There were also 75 original t-72 with smoke mortars, side skirts and armor on the hull front.
The variant wich is called t-72g by zaloga is the t-72m. So almost every combination is possible.
blabla
Joined: December 02, 2006
KitMaker: 147 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 11:06 AM UTC
Thank you for your help Jochen. Maybe, could you tell me your reference?
I would prefer a T-72M. But how? My suggestion is to use the SP Design Hull Front, but which turret, if there is one on the market (Miniarm, T-72A, Verlinden, etc.) or can I use the original Tamiya turret( maybe removing some mm from its front armour)?
Here two more photos of a NVA T-72
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:T-72_NPA.JPG
http://www.flickr.com/photos/neuwieser/6589290215/
Cheers
I would prefer a T-72M. But how? My suggestion is to use the SP Design Hull Front, but which turret, if there is one on the market (Miniarm, T-72A, Verlinden, etc.) or can I use the original Tamiya turret( maybe removing some mm from its front armour)?
Here two more photos of a NVA T-72
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:T-72_NPA.JPG
http://www.flickr.com/photos/neuwieser/6589290215/
Cheers
Jimmy812
Joined: June 22, 2010
KitMaker: 57 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 12:15 PM UTC
Hi,
The iformations are from the book "Die Kampfpanzer der NVA" by Jörg Siegert.
First the Tamiya t-72 is an t-72m. It's one of those 23 t-72m with the additional armor on the hullfront.
I'm not sure if the sp designs t-72 hulls fit for an t-72m it seems that they belong to the t-72m1 (that is the export designation for the t-72a or "dolly parton" version to make it a bit more complicated). Because of that an miniarm t-72a turret woudn't also usefull for an t-72m. The verlinden hull would fit for an t-72m the verlinden turret looks a bit strange to me. I think the tamiya turret looks good not perfect but good and the patrita turrets too. You could also use an t-72a turret from miniarm an the tamiya hull to create an t-72m1 (for me the most beautifull version of the t-72).
The iformations are from the book "Die Kampfpanzer der NVA" by Jörg Siegert.
First the Tamiya t-72 is an t-72m. It's one of those 23 t-72m with the additional armor on the hullfront.
I'm not sure if the sp designs t-72 hulls fit for an t-72m it seems that they belong to the t-72m1 (that is the export designation for the t-72a or "dolly parton" version to make it a bit more complicated). Because of that an miniarm t-72a turret woudn't also usefull for an t-72m. The verlinden hull would fit for an t-72m the verlinden turret looks a bit strange to me. I think the tamiya turret looks good not perfect but good and the patrita turrets too. You could also use an t-72a turret from miniarm an the tamiya hull to create an t-72m1 (for me the most beautifull version of the t-72).
afv_rob
Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 2,556 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 - 08:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
My main source is Steven Zalogas books about the T-72 from the year 1989 (Concord 1004). He described two types of East German T-72. The first models were in the 80s the so called T.72b while the later East germans were T-72G.
Its best to avoid using the old Concord books as a guide for T-72 designators because they were published before the correct variations were know.
for the best guide check these Missing Lynx threads:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47209/message/1209626008/Overview+of+T-72A+models
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47209/message/1210487267/Overview+of+T-72B+models
Note as well, that while some argue the Tamiya kit represents a rare T-72M1 hull with a T-72M turret, in my opinion the turret is off completely and does not correctly represent an M turret. The main reason is they moulded the undercut below the smoke dischargers which is characteristic of the M1 (or A) turret. There is also some discrepancy with the turret shape, its certainly a bit off for the M turret, but with some scale plans you could of course add some putty and correct the shape and eliminate the undercut.
NK Patriota make a nice early turret, but its the Ural type with coincidence range finder so is only suitable for earlier basic T-72 versions. Currently I believe the only company who makes an M turret with the laser rangefinder is Verlinden.
LeoCmdr
Joined: January 19, 2005
KitMaker: 4,085 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 12:32 PM UTC
Excellent to see some great information sharing and clarification on the T-72 variants.
So, just for clarification purposes can the T-72 in this link be confirmed as a T-72M1? It is one of several ex-East German T-72 purchased by the Canadian Forces in the early 1990s. This one stills runs.
http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/jim_caddo/t-72m1_walk_1.htm
So, just for clarification purposes can the T-72 in this link be confirmed as a T-72M1? It is one of several ex-East German T-72 purchased by the Canadian Forces in the early 1990s. This one stills runs.
http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/jim_caddo/t-72m1_walk_1.htm
afv_rob
Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 2,556 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 10:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Excellent to see some great information sharing and clarification on the T-72 variants.
So, just for clarification purposes can the T-72 in this link be confirmed as a T-72M1? It is one of several ex-East German T-72 purchased by the Canadian Forces in the early 1990s. This one stills runs.
http://www.primeportal.net/tanks/jim_caddo/t-72m1_walk_1.htm
Yes Jason thats an M1, as far as i'm aware its generally the undercut below the smoke dischargers that gives it away.
Things are however further complicated by the fact that the Czechs and Poles manufactured their own turrets as well, some have argued that the Tamiya kit turret might in fact be a Czech turret which has some differences to the Russian built examples, what those differences are I cannot remember.
zapper
Joined: October 18, 2005
KitMaker: 745 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 - 11:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
in my opinion the turret is off completely and does not correctly represent an M turret. The main reason is they moulded the undercut below the smoke dischargers which is characteristic of the M1 (or A) turret. There is also some discrepancy with the turret shape...
For what it's worth, my Mk. I eyeball agree with the above said.
Quoted Text
NK Patriota make a nice early turret, but its the Ural type with coincidence range finder so is only suitable for earlier basic T-72 versions.
I borrowed this turet from a vendor last fall and could compare it to the pictures I have on my hard drive. To sum up my impression the NK Patriota turret have similar problems as the Tamiya turret: it sort of look like what it is supposed to represent but have issues on the shape and detail level. (Most of the Ural pitures I compared with are of Libyan vehicles but I assumed they should be the same.)
Personally I keep my fingers crossed for an Ural turret from Miniarm.
Cheers,
/E
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
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Posted: Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 08:15 AM UTC
Just so that we are clear on this:
The 23 East German T-72M as represented by the Tamiya kit are NOT NOT NOT ex soviet stock. They were made in Poland, as stated in the Missing-links thread. This is not to say that Tamiya did not mess up the turret, but look to Polish made turrets to compare to, not Soviet ones.
The 23 East German T-72M as represented by the Tamiya kit are NOT NOT NOT ex soviet stock. They were made in Poland, as stated in the Missing-links thread. This is not to say that Tamiya did not mess up the turret, but look to Polish made turrets to compare to, not Soviet ones.
blabla
Joined: December 02, 2006
KitMaker: 147 posts
Armorama: 142 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 10:06 AM UTC
Hello,
frist thx for your help!!!!
It is always interresting so the confusions....I think during the Cold War both German states had one common ground: bureaucracy!!! East Germany witht ist strange T-72 and West germany with its crazy disignation for the Leopard 1 tank...(a1, a2, a3, a4, a1a2,etc):D
But back to my problem. Although Jochen gave an important advice with the combination of East germans M and M1, I am a bit unsure, what this mean for the modeller: I bought now the SP Design Front Hull, early typ as a base. I do not want to use the 16mm extra armour....a tank like this will be my next aim. Which turret do I need???
frist thx for your help!!!!
It is always interresting so the confusions....I think during the Cold War both German states had one common ground: bureaucracy!!! East Germany witht ist strange T-72 and West germany with its crazy disignation for the Leopard 1 tank...(a1, a2, a3, a4, a1a2,etc):D But back to my problem. Although Jochen gave an important advice with the combination of East germans M and M1, I am a bit unsure, what this mean for the modeller: I bought now the SP Design Front Hull, early typ as a base. I do not want to use the 16mm extra armour....a tank like this will be my next aim. Which turret do I need???
afv_rob
Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 2,556 posts
Armorama: 2,199 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 10:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Just so that we are clear on this:
The 23 East German T-72M as represented by the Tamiya kit are NOT NOT NOT ex soviet stock. They were made in Poland, as stated in the Missing-links thread. This is not to say that Tamiya did not mess up the turret, but look to Polish made turrets to compare to, not Soviet ones.
I agree its certainly not Russian, but I still think that Tamiya totally fluffed the turret up and basically produced what might be described as a 'skinny dolly parton' turret.
The only company who seems to have come close to producing anything like the early M turret is Modelpoint with their T-72Ural turret, its just a shame they never did one with the laser range finder.
afv_rob
Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 2,556 posts
Armorama: 2,199 posts
Posted: Thursday, August 16, 2012 - 10:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
But back to my problem. Although Jochen gave an important advice with the combination of East germans M and M1, I am a bit unsure, what this mean for the modeller: I bought now the SP Design Front Hull, early typ as a base. I do not want to use the 16mm extra armour....a tank like this will be my next aim. Which turret do I need???
The SP Designs hull will build a T-72A, as far as I know all M1's have the 16mm as an additional welded on plate, whereas the T-72A (as depicted on the SP item) has the whole glacis uparmored, and is good only for a Russian made tank.
If you want to build an East German tank, these are the options:
Tamiya with with T-72A/M1 turret to depict an M1
Verlinden hull with Verlinden turret or MK Patriota turret to depict an early East German T-72M 'Ural'
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