Scotland, United Kingdom
Joined: September 04, 2011
KitMaker: 461 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 - 10:52 AM UTC
Hi guys.
I know this is'nt really to do with models but, were there any T-72As or T-80s in Iraq Gulf War? I am in something of a Youtube battle with some one claiming that this is true.
Any advice would be very much appreciated.
Thanks
Euan
Here's the link to the Vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZf5ILZ8fI8"A sincere diplomat is like dry water or wooden iron." - Joseph Stalin
My Blog -
http://juniormilitarymodeller.blogspot.co.uk/
Skåne, Sweden
Joined: October 18, 2005
KitMaker: 745 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 - 11:05 AM UTC
Iraq had T-72M1 (and the old Ural turret with the stereoscopic rangefinder) which is the export version of T-72A. And no, no T-80's.
Cheers,
/E
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Scotland, United Kingdom
Joined: September 04, 2011
KitMaker: 461 posts
Armorama: 452 posts
Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 - 11:14 AM UTC
Thanks. I did'nt think they had any T-80s.
Euan
"A sincere diplomat is like dry water or wooden iron." - Joseph Stalin
My Blog -
http://juniormilitarymodeller.blogspot.co.uk/
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: January 09, 2010
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Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 - 08:07 PM UTC
I believe they were equipped with the T-55, Type 59, Type 69, T-62 and the T-72M1
No T-64's or T-80's
Milano, Italy
Joined: July 13, 2010
KitMaker: 3,845 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 - 08:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I believe they were equipped with the T-55, Type 59, Type 69, T-62 and the T-72M1
No T-64's or T-80's
I absolutely confirm
...well in my opinion T-55 isn' t just a tank. Actually it is THE TANK...
#284
Northern Ireland, United Kingdom
Joined: October 04, 2006
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Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 - 11:53 PM UTC
I concur with what the other guys have said. I'll also add that in addition to the Iraqi's Soviet made armor they also had around 150 Western tanks in their arsenal at the end of the Iran-Iraq War due to having captured them from the Iranians- these were mostly Chieftan Mk3 and 5s as well as M60s and M47s. They'd also experimented with mounting the D-81M gun on the T-55 during the Iran-Iraq war but I'm not sure if there is any proof they ever fielded them during the Gulf War.
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: January 09, 2010
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Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 02:52 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I concur with what the other guys have said. I'll also add that in addition to the Iraqi's Soviet made armor they also had around 150 Western tanks in their arsenal at the end of the Iran-Iraq War due to having captured them from the Iranians- these were mostly Chieftan Mk3 and 5s as well as M60s and M47s. They'd also experimented with mounting the D-81M gun on the T-55 during the Iran-Iraq war but I'm not sure if there is any proof they ever fielded them during the Gulf War.
That is interesting, do any images of these Tanks exist?
S
#284
Northern Ireland, United Kingdom
Joined: October 04, 2006
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Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 04:53 AM UTC
Steven- the only pic I know of is of an Iraqi T-69 with the 125mm gun- there's a picture of it in the Osprey T-54/55 book by Steve Zaloga. I don't have the picture from the book but I do have what looks to be a picture of the same tank as in the book:
There don't seem to be any of the Iraqi T-55 with this gun although I believe several countries offer a heavily upgraded T-55 with a 125mm gun.
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Scotland, United Kingdom
Joined: September 04, 2011
KitMaker: 461 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 05:03 AM UTC
Thanks for all of your replies. Does anyone know if they had the T-72A?
Thanks
Euan
"A sincere diplomat is like dry water or wooden iron." - Joseph Stalin
My Blog -
http://juniormilitarymodeller.blogspot.co.uk/
Minnesota, United States
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 05:10 AM UTC
Iraqi tanks, a synopsis: (All Iraqi tank "series" had some # of them modded in many ways that might make it hard to ID them...example, the T-55 with Iraqi "Enigma" armor package, or a singular "trial" Type-69 with 125mm gun, etc...)
T-54
T-55
T-62 (m1962, m1967, and m1972)
T-72M (Export version of T-72 initial)
T-72M1 (Export version of T-72A)
Type-59 (copy of the T-54A, easily confused with the T-54 in Iraq)
Type-69 (upgraded version of the Type-59 - essentially a further upgraded T-54)
Various other relics/captured tanks.
They had NO (0) M1 (plain vanilla) tanks EVER before OIF. There is some rumor of this, but they did not have ANY.
They had NO (0) T-80 series tanks EVER.
Ex-34th ID MNANG - 13F and 63D
"Fire For Effect."
Skåne, Sweden
Joined: October 18, 2005
KitMaker: 745 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 06:17 AM UTC
Oh, T-72 versions... the Horror.
Quoted Text
T-72M (Export version of T-72 initial)
I still use Dirk Caemerlynck guide (from M-L) to T-72A (and variants). According to that, the M (sometimes refered to as G) is the export version that pre-dates the M1 but was purpose-built without the sterescopic rangefinder. In contrast to this there is the "original" T-72 (which I use to refer to as Ural-turret) which have the stereoscopic rangefinder.
Are we talking about the same "M" or are you refering to the ones with stereoscopic rangefinder as M as well?
Quoted Text
They had NO (0) M1 (plain vanilla) tanks EVER before OIF. There is some rumor of this, but they did not have ANY.
"M1 (plain vanilla)"? Are we still talking about the T-72M1 = export version of T-72A, or some other version?
(Fingers crossed that the world leaders soon will come to an agreement regarding an universal T-72 designation guide.
)
Cheers,
/E
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England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: January 09, 2010
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Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 06:26 AM UTC
I thought that the T-72M was a export variant of the T-72A without the composite armour in the front of the Hull and Turret.
The so called Monkey version of the tank because it lacked many of the advanced features of the Soviet Version.
Minnesota, United States
Joined: March 04, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 10:57 AM UTC
Dirk's guide is the best to go by. When I think T-72M, I think export of the T-72 (but not with the "Ural" turret). Clear enough?
As for the export of T-72's, it ROUGHLY follow this:
T-72 - export as T-72M (or incorrectly T-72G)
T-72A - export as T-72M1
T-72B - export as T-72S
For my comments on the M1, I meant the M1 Abrams. In reference to Iraqi tanks. There was a long running rumor that Iraq had gotten 4 M1 (plain vanilla) Abrams tanks before they became persona-non-grata with the USA. It was a false story cooked up over a modeller who had some what-if fun. Just wanted to set that story right since we were talking about other non-soviet tanks in Iraq before/during OIF.
Ex-34th ID MNANG - 13F and 63D
"Fire For Effect."
Skåne, Sweden
Joined: October 18, 2005
KitMaker: 745 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 11:35 AM UTC
Everbody on the same page then... almost...
My objection the is that Iraq, prior (and under) ODS had T-72 Ural's (at least with stereoscopic rangefinder which the M never had???) and T-72M1.
The T-72M I'm not sure... they sure got them after OIF, but I can't remember any photos of the before that (which of course is not the same thing as them not having any).
BTW: Iraqi M1's, never heard that one before. Probably painted French Panther pink and loaded onto ex-IDF Dragon Wagons. Question is: did they have zimmerit?
Cheers,
/E
CU @ C4 2020
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California, United States
Joined: June 24, 2007
KitMaker: 503 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 11:44 AM UTC
Soviets never sold T-80 (or T-64) to anyone, not even closest of Warsaw Pack allies like Poland. Few T-80s sold to Yemen came from already independent Belarus.
England - North East, United Kingdom
Joined: January 16, 2013
KitMaker: 31 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 07:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Iraq, prior (and under) ODS had T-72 Ural's (at least with stereoscopic rangefinder which the M never had???) and T-72M1.
I agree - I would tweak the following:
Quoted Text
T-72M (Export version of T-72 initial)
T-72M1 (Export version of T-72A)
as:
T-72 model 1975 (Export version of initial T-72)
T-72M model 1980 (turret similar to above with the stereoscopic rangefinder replaced. Usually seen with side skirts and tucha)
T-72M1 model 1982 (Export version of T-72A)
Modelling Post-War Russian Armour : http://obyekt.blogspot.co.uk/
#284
Northern Ireland, United Kingdom
Joined: October 04, 2006
KitMaker: 3,094 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 - 11:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I thought that the T-72M was a export variant of the T-72A without the composite armour in the front of the Hull and Turret.
The so called Monkey version of the tank because it lacked many of the advanced features of the Soviet Version.
Interestingly, the Iraqis had actually become acutely aware of some of the drawbacks to their T-72's due to various lessons learned during the Iran-Iraq war and during that war and prior to the Gulf War they experimented with improving the armor and technology. They were said to have used their own ideas on the various bits of Soviet fire control technology but they also had access to some Western equipment for this role and apparently fitted that to some of their tanks although I can't say if any of these experiments were successful, probably not judging by what happend during ODS.
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England - South East, United Kingdom
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Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 01:02 AM UTC
The performamce of the T-72M in the Gulf War 1 and 2 decimated international sales of the T-72 and lead to the tank being improved and rebadged as the T-90
I often wonder if some of the tank engagements would have been less one sided if Iraq had the Soviet version of the tank with composite and reactive armour. I am glad that they did not.
A huge factor was that tank crew were generally very poorly trained and the fact that we had complete air superiority.
Scotland, United Kingdom
Joined: September 04, 2011
KitMaker: 461 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 06:19 AM UTC
The person I am 'arguing' with is certain that there were T-72A's i Iraq. He claims one was collected for testing.
Can anyone verify this?
Thanks
Euan
"A sincere diplomat is like dry water or wooden iron." - Joseph Stalin
My Blog -
http://juniormilitarymodeller.blogspot.co.uk/
England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: October 09, 2005
KitMaker: 2,556 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 09:00 AM UTC
while on the subject of Iraqi T-72's, heres an interesting one:
'As all else failed we raised our fists and weapons,
Not born as soldiers, but driven to the end'
Minnesota, United States
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 10:56 AM UTC
Maybe they are a little confused. Iraq has T-72A's right now, after OIF. None were in country, that are known, BEFORE OIF. All tanks thought to be T-72A's have ended up being T-72M1's. A simple check is on how many "mounts" there are on the front lower glacis...if 8, it is a -A. If 4 then it is a -M1. The -M1 never received the anti-rad liner either. If the turret "bulges" were cut open, you would know for sure as the -A had much better inserts in the cheeks than the -M1. All other differences were essentially in the tanks interior, so hard to go with much more than the mounting points to start with.
Also, the there was no export of the -A until the 1990's to ANYONE outside of the USSR, and then only to 3 countries. Since then those countries have sold off old stock, hence Iraq having some now. It may be possible that Iraq had a single -A there, but it would only have been 1. More likely the US Army bought one from a former CIS country and then claimed they got it in Iraq to keep the heat off their "Friend". I find it hard to believe that Iraq would have a -A in country for OIF.
Quoted Text
The person I am 'arguing' with is certain that there were T-72A's i Iraq. He claims one was collected for testing.
Can anyone verify this?
Thanks
Euan
Ex-34th ID MNANG - 13F and 63D
"Fire For Effect."
California, United States
Joined: June 24, 2007
KitMaker: 503 posts
Armorama: 500 posts
Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 12:42 PM UTC
What's there to argue??
Just check cast ID on the turret's interior forward left cheek.
California, United States
Joined: June 24, 2007
KitMaker: 503 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 - 12:44 PM UTC
Quoted Text
while on the subject of Iraqi T-72's, heres an interesting one:
That is the standard T-72M with stereoscopic rangefinder. ERA is of local bootleg variety that imitates Soviet K-1/3.
Quoted Text
I often wonder if some of the tank engagements would have been less one sided if Iraq had the Soviet version of the tank with composite and reactive armour. I am glad that they did not.
A huge factor was that tank crew were generally very poorly trained and the fact that we had complete air superiority.
Same or near same outcome. They could just as well have Leo 2 and still suffer same devastation all due to poor moral, training, comms and lack of leadership and initiative from their officers.
