_GOTOBOTTOM
Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
US experimental heavy armor in plastic!
M4A1Sherman
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Friday, October 07, 2016 - 06:36 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Thanks for pointing that out Steven, I'm sorry if it sounded like I was being pompous and dogmatic, but I haven't been able to find any photos, in the Hunnicutt Firepower book, or on the net, that have anything like what is in that first photo, so I assumed incorrectly that the styles shown in the second and third photos were the only two types that existed, but if you look close in the second photo, the tank behind seems to have a third type of bulge. You also pointed out another mistake that I made, The first photo is listed as the T29E1, and I mistakenly posted a photo of the T29 instead of a T29E1. Can anyone tell me the difference between the T29 and the T29E1? were they internal, or were there external differences also? I could not seem to find any mention of it (T29E1) in the Firepower book or on the web. This why I wanted to discuss this topic, because I have so much to learn about this tank.



Another thing to consider, regarding the PHOTOS- Could it be that the vehicles themselves IN these photos have been misidentified by the photographer, author or publisher of these photos? Stranger things HAVE happened...



Dennis, that's a very important point, but I was going by the T29, and the T29E3 that's actually painted on the tank (by the museum I would imagine) to identify the vehicles. my mistake was that I had not found a photo of the T29E1 yet, (as it turns out it did not exist, thanks Scott) and mistakenly posted the T29 photo instead, which reinforces your point to watch your references when researching, although I had it labeled correctly, just used incorrectly as Steven pointed out.



Actually John, I wasn't pointing out errors that you, yourself made, I was just mentioning the possibility that mistakes might have been made by others who have nothing to do with you, Steve, or myself. When you come right down to it, it's a GOOD THING that we have guys like Steve, Gino, Kurt, Mike-165th, Frenchy, Pawel/"vodnik", and quite a few others on this site that I could mention, who are VERY knowledgeable when it comes to US WWII, post-war, "modern" Armor and Soft-skins, who help us out and sometimes, "set us straight"...
JSSVIII
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: March 28, 2007
KitMaker: 1,169 posts
Armorama: 1,067 posts
Posted: Friday, October 07, 2016 - 06:43 PM UTC
I have created the new topic "Why we shouldn't discuss pictures of unreleased kits of US experimental heavy armor in plastic!" but I don't know how to link to it here, could somebody help me out?

Dennis and Kurt, I will be happy to continue this with you over there if you like, but I'm not going to participate in any more discussion on that particular sidebar here anymore.

I'm not saying you cant, just that I'm done over here in this thread on that subject.
JSSVIII
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: March 28, 2007
KitMaker: 1,169 posts
Armorama: 1,067 posts
Posted: Friday, October 07, 2016 - 06:51 PM UTC
I agree Dennis, I really do appreciate all the help offered here by everyone, to anyone, novice or expert. That's why I come here myself.
Pedro
Visit this Community
Wojewodztwo Pomorskie, Poland
Joined: May 26, 2003
KitMaker: 1,208 posts
Armorama: 1,023 posts
Posted: Monday, October 10, 2016 - 12:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What inaccuracy? You have photos of three different tanks and no two have the same trunnion bulges. And during the test program is said that parts were traded back and forth on the nearly identical prototypes. So whatever mistakes there are, may not be mistakes but merely the variations in configuration the actual vehicles had during their careers.

I don't mind when people theorize over scant evidence. It's actually entertaining to see who gets the closest. What I can't stand is someone seemingly pontificating about how X is wrong when it was just a variation in the original.



Okay, I might chime in with a few clarifications and thoughts on the subject of Trumpeters T29 test shot and whole T29 series of tanks, that is mostly still in existence today.

We dont have to rely on scant evidence on the subject of T29 series of tanks. There still exists at least one tank of each main types of the T29 program: one T29, one T29E3, one T34 and I think there may be even up to three T30s.

I think that we can assume that all the existing tanks are in their final form. Also it would be safer for Trumpeter to use one of them as their prototype, and not 'something that could be sometime inbetween...' We dont know exactly how the program went and when the tanks were rebuilt or redesigned as something different than basic T29.

Starting with the 'trunnion bulges': Style depicted by trumpeter can be found on an existing T34 http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/world-war-2/images/0/0d/T34HeavyTank.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151113042932, it seems to be simple flat plate that covers the trunnions. Same style can be found on one of the remaining T30s.

Second style is visible in the photo of T29 posted earlier, where the trunion bulge is a smooth casting forming one part together with the mantlet sides. this style is found today on the T29 and at least one of the T30's http://www.militaryfactory.com/imageviewer/ar/pic-detail.asp?armor_id=353&sCurrentPic=pic3

Third style is connected only with T29E3, seeems do be a simple plate welded into a cutout in the mantlet sides and containig a smaller cutout showing the trunnion. http://svsm.org/gallery/T29E3/IMG_0945

So I'd say that trumpeter's kit should show the variation that is visible on a todays T29: smooth cast part.

As to the positioning of the bulge, yes it looks to be placed too symmetric, it should be slightly lower than the mantlet's horizontal centerline, but due to the angle of the photo of prototype kit its hard to tell.

Other things I noticed: trupeter seems to follow parts breakdown of the commanders T29 resin kit in the area of the turret front, just behind the mantlet. It looks like the turret's front is a separate part on trumpeters model, just as it was on the commanders resin model. I understand it can be technologically viable parts breakdown, but then the transition between front and sides of the turret should be smooth as it was one casting IRL, below is a photo of my modified Commanders resin turret:



Also there seems to be edge in the centerline of the roof, on the real tank there was a smooth fillet.

They did missed 5 prominent bolts on the sides of the mantlet.

Gunners periscope is... odd on the test model. It should be simple sherman style periscope with thin sheet metal flap.

The rough casting finish on the lower edge of the turret also looks wrong for both existing T29s and T29E3: http://svsm.org/gallery/t29/P1110952
Similar finish can be found on T34.

What trumpeter depicted looks more like turrets on T30's : http://s019.radikal.ru/i614/1206/32/f2530b8928bd.jpg, with a smooth finished side.

Last but not the least is the very underdetailed turret vent housing, shaped as the part in commanders resin kit which matches Hunnicutts drawings, but does not really match photos. Below is the photo of vent housing I've scratchbuilt for my commanders T29 crap-resin model:



Sorry if I sound like trying to be a smarta**, it's just I did try to make somewhat accurate T29 out of Commanders resin kit and got some stuff figured out in the process.

Now if only someone with the contacts at the Trumpeter could post my list with links to photos to them, would be great...

Cheers,
Greg
MikeyBugs95
Visit this Community
New York, United States
Joined: May 27, 2013
KitMaker: 2,210 posts
Armorama: 1,712 posts
Posted: Monday, October 10, 2016 - 02:41 AM UTC
Informative post, Grzegorz. But a word of warning to others, I wouldn't go to that Radikal site. I just tried on my Android and I kept getting popups and screen overlays.
JSSVIII
Visit this Community
Massachusetts, United States
Joined: March 28, 2007
KitMaker: 1,169 posts
Armorama: 1,067 posts
Posted: Monday, October 10, 2016 - 03:27 AM UTC
Hello Greg, with the information learned here, I was thinking that trumpeters depiction might be closest to the T34. , Thanks for taking one for the team sir, we all know that they wouldn't be releasing one unless someone had started a major project like yours.

A little comfort might come in the fact that, if the kit turret has major flaws, with all the fixing you have done, you could use your turret on their hull, which hopefully will be better than the commanders kit, which looks a little rough. An aftermarket metal barrel and tracks should follow at some point also.
Pedro
Visit this Community
Wojewodztwo Pomorskie, Poland
Joined: May 26, 2003
KitMaker: 1,208 posts
Armorama: 1,023 posts
Posted: Monday, October 10, 2016 - 03:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hello Greg, with the information learned here, I was thinking that trumpeters depiction might be closest to the T34. , Thanks for taking one for the team sir, we all know that they wouldn't be releasing one unless someone had started a major project like yours.

A little comfort might come in the fact that, if the kit turret has major flaws, with all the fixing you have done, you could use your turret on their hull, which hopefully will be better than the commanders kit, which looks a little rough. An aftermarket metal barrel and tracks should follow at some point also.



John, yes, aftermarket tracks and barrel will be most welcome. Right now I don't see trumpeters turret as worse than what I have, I just hope they didn't copy Commanders ideas there
At least it has most of the needed details, all in all should be eaasier upgrading job and on a cheaper model.

Mikey, sorry you got that 'russian fever' there, though nothing popped up on my computer with windows 10 and on IOS device.

Cheers,
Greg
KurtLaughlin
Visit this Community
Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Monday, October 10, 2016 - 05:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think that we can assume that all the existing tanks are in their final form. Also it would be safer for Trumpeter to use one of them as their prototype, and not 'something that could be sometime inbetween...' We dont know exactly how the program went and when the tanks were rebuilt or redesigned as something different than basic T29.



Based on some of the other Hobby Boss kits (this is a HB product, not Trumpeter's) I think it is more likely that they followed the drawings in Hunnicutt, to a fault.


Quoted Text

Starting with the 'trunnion bulges':
Third style is connected only with T29E3, seeems do be a simple plate welded into a cutout in the mantlet sides and containig a smaller cutout showing the trunnion. http://svsm.org/gallery/T29E3/IMG_0945



This is the "bolted plate" design. It was also seen on the first T29 when built, as seen in Hunnicutt's Firepower. Bear in mind that at the end there were eight T29s series 105mm tanks (5x T29, 1x T29E1, 1x T29E2, and 1x T29E3) two guns installed in the series (2x T5E1 and 6x T5E2, and three mounts (2x T123, 5x T123E1, and 1x T123E2. The gun shield and trunnions are part of the gun mount, so that needs to be considered in the analysis.


Quoted Text

The rough casting finish on the lower edge of the turret also looks wrong for both existing T29s and T29E3:
Similar finish can be found on T34. What trumpeter depicted looks more like turrets on T30's with a smooth finished side.



This appears to be an artifact, as on Shermans and M47s, of the foundry that cast the turret and how they decided to arrange the pattern in the mold and to machine the casting.

KL
 _GOTOTOP