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For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
Are we spoiled?
Konigwolf
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Tasmania, Australia
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 04:30 AM UTC
I think it was Shepard Paine in his book from the 80's proclaimed we in the golden age of modelling. He was referring to the amount of new kits and research books available or becoming available at the time. I grew up in the 80's but didn't learn about AM stuff till the mid 90's and didn't get a credit card to start ordering stuff from overseas until the early 2000's, and then the internet bloomed...

If the 80's were indeed the golden age of modelling I think the last few years have made us become jaded and complacent in our views and expectations, spoiled rotten if you will. Instead of a 1-2 dozen kits being released a year across the board we can see a dozen or more kits being released a month at times. With the all the new manufacturers slowly rising from the late 80's to the host popping up in the last couple of years I think we tend to forget the work needed to research, design, refine and market a new kit along with the costs involved AND time in doing this.

Look at Trumpeter and Dragon kits released over the last 5 or 6 years if you will and then compare those kits to early productions from these same two manufacturers. Both these companies suffered poor reviews on early items but the quality (if not always accuracy) of their kits now is top of the line. Now if we see how long it took these companies to garner the knowledge and experience to create these better kits should we not also look back on past experience and then apply at least a little patience to the new manufacturers plying their wares to our market? Yes with computer technology available now a new company with enough funds can pop out a new kit every month but it still takes a lot of time for criticism to filter back to head officer of what is wrong with their kits and how to make it better.

I recently received MENG's newest beast their M1A2 and was happy to see that they have learned from past criticisms and now instead of cramming everything into an undersized box and having parts damaged they now pad fragile pieces and provided plenty of room in an oversized box. This was a basic problem happening to many of MENG's works, with MENG possibly the most praised of the new producers.

Tamiya, one of todays most highly regarded manufactures still use loose mesh the builder must cut to size hoping it doesn't fray and come apart when almost all other companies include photo-etch of these items as standard yet rarely seem to be judged for it.

So are we becoming spoiled, at risk of becoming jaded and spoiled, having our wishes for every modelling subject granted only to then shove these products back in the creators faces calling them sub par and crap when a bare 15-20 years ago we would of taken these items with thanks and said that's what modelling is about, fixing the bad and making true works of art.
slug955
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United Kingdom
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 04:39 AM UTC
Yes I agree we are spoiled, but there is a downside. Once upon a time if you wanted a model that was not kitted you had to scratch or alter an available model. You were rubbish at it at first but over time developed skills. Now you just wait a while and the kit will come along but not the skills.
Tojo72
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 04:43 AM UTC
I think that when you pay top dollar for kits now,you expect a lot,you should get what you pay for,and some folks are disappointed when manufacturers cut corners and still charge top dollar,like a lot of the Dragon re-pops.So I don't think it's being spoiled,it's getting what you pay for when you pay big bucks for a kit.
Thirian24
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 05:01 AM UTC
I can't say honestly as I just start modeling in October. I can say though, that I'm extremely excited seeing all the new stuff coming out. My wallet is not so happy though. Lol
Headhunter506
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 05:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Are we spoiled?



Sniff.......Nah, I'm good. I haven't reached my expiration date yet.
KurtLaughlin
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Pennsylvania, United States
Joined: January 18, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 05:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think that when you pay top dollar for kits now,you expect a lot,you should get what you pay for,and some folks are disappointed when manufacturers cut corners and still charge top dollar,like a lot of the Dragon re-pops.So I don't think it's being spoiled,it's getting what you pay for when you pay big bucks for a kit.



I think people haven't adjusted their mental "top dollar" figure to keep up with the times. A run-of-the-mill tank kit has an MSRP of $60 or more these days. That's just the new normal. When people expect every $60 2016 kit to have advanced the state of the art (over yesterday's release) to the same amount as a 2000 $60 kit did over a 1995 kit, they are going to be disappointed. You can call that spoiled, or maybe deluded.

Today's reality is that you are not paying "top dollar" for a 1/35 tank kit unless you are paying $100 or more. Sixty dollars is still a lot of money (so is $40) but it's what you have to pay to get merely a "decent" kit in 2016. It won't get you "amazing".

KL
m4sherman
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Arizona, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 05:51 AM UTC
Spare the rod and spoil the modeler!

Perhaps I am spoiled. I can still remember popping the top off my very first M4A1 Sherman, from Monogram! I can now pop the top off a Asuka/Taska M4A1 and feel like I'm in heaven!

I am very grateful for all the new ways to spend money, PE, 3D etc. I think it all helps keep the hobby going.
JPTRR
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RAILROAD MODELING
#051
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 06:15 AM UTC
We are spoiled. And what the kit makers should say is, And you're welcome!

Back in the 1990s a master modeler friend brought in some Tamiya figures blinged out with P/E from some odd company called Verlinden. I was amazed at the P/E buckles and straps but I mumbled something like, 'yeah, but what became of modeling?' After all, I made mine with wire that I bent and flattened. I got my ammo boxes and supply cartons by making them with balsa wood and popsicle sticks, not by buying resin castings. I detailed cockpits and engines with Shep Paine's method of model railroad parts and bits of styrene, not with resin and P/E.

But now I am more than happy to be spoiled and have resin/3D printed/photo-etched aftermarket accessories!

I still practice "gizmology" because I have the experience and the stuff. But I have no qualms about buying some nice P/E or resin that has been painstakingly researched and created by people with a love for the subject.

I do encourage all modelers to try "gizmology"; it is very rewarding to make some thing that looks good with bits and pieces. Very satisfying.
SEDimmick
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 06:56 AM UTC
Price boils down to what is important to you, or what is important to your budget.

If you wait long enough, the price will drop or you can buy it second hand, or even have secondary option from a completely different company.

If the kit has issues that really bother you, why not wait and get it on sale, if the subject really interests you?

I personally don't mind some work on a project I'm really interested in. As long as it meets my criteria I have set in my head for it.

Nothing is as cheap as it was 20 years ago, for better or worse...you can't judge kit prices on what you paid 15 years ago vs what you can get today. Most kits today have parts that would be considered AM back in the day, and once you started adding it, it would cost as much if not more then what a kit goes for today.
DocEvan
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 07:05 AM UTC
If any time prior to the 1990s in modeling was the "Golden Age", then we're currently living in the "Platinum Age"
Petition2God
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Colorado, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 07:14 AM UTC
O, no doubt that we are spoiled. I am very grateful that we have so many great new kits and tons of AM products to go with. We must remember that "haters will always be haters." Some deserve to be ignored.

At the same time, our expectations have changed b/c times have changed. Look at any mass-produced consumer products, whether it be cars, computers, mobile phones, appliances, etc., their qualities have improved quite significantly in the past several decades. Our hobby products are no exceptions. As the technology gets better and more accurate information gets more readily available, the manufacturers must get on with the competition and constantly improve. That's free market for you. We are all simply part of the inevitable change.
Kevlar06
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 07:16 AM UTC
As some have said above, I think we're spoiled based on the sheer variety of kits being offered in all realms. I've been modeling since 1959. Kits are being offered today of subjects we didn't know existed in the 60's 70's or 80's. Some say prices are high today, but I remember looking at kits that were $5.00 or $10.00 in the sixties and thinking they were way to expensive and out of my price range-- and they never had the detail or accuracy of today's kits. I've begun thinking about it in another way-- many today have an iPhone or its equivalent, internet, computers, and can't live without them. How much do those cost? do we complain about those services? So today's $60 kit is the $2.98 kit of 1960. It's really relative to the time we live in. Are we spoiled-- you betcha-- this ain't your Grandpa's hobby-- and that's a good thing. Hobby manufacturers can keep spoiling me!
VR, Russ
Removed by original poster on 05/18/16 - 02:49:04 (GMT).
bprice1974
#436
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 07:50 AM UTC

Quoted Text

If any time prior to the 1990s in modeling was the "Golden Age", then we're currently living in the "Platinum Age"


I agree. Unbelievable amount of different quality kits are available everywhere. Also, when you throw the other modeling subjects in, the choices are endless and the quality on some kits is amazing.
kandahar
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Tokyo-to, Japan / 日本
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 09:26 AM UTC
No I do not think we are 'spoiled'. Thanks to the internet a huge market suddenly exists and to compete manufacturers are trying to build market share. Some are going down the road of good engineering but sometimes questionable research and others are going with greater accuracy. It is too soon to say which philosophy will win out or whether either will triumph. Remember it is the company's job to make products that sell. If it is doing that it is getting something right.
TankManNick
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 09:36 AM UTC
Are we spoiled?

Quite probably......

AND I LOVE IT !!!!!!!!!

TopSmith
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 09:59 AM UTC
I have gotten lazy and critical at the same time. I don't want to work a ton just to get a crap kit passable. I want it to fall together with precision. I don't want to struggle with a crap kit to get it to look authentic. I want it to look like an exact miniature of the real vehicle. I no longer look forward to building an Emhar mark IV. I now look forward to Tamiya's Mark IV. (I have even been known to sell an older unbuilt kit just to replace it with a newer better quality kit of the same vehicle). Sad isn't it? I started with Aurora 1/48th scale tanks and aircraft. Todays are so much nicer!!!

Does anyone have an old Aurora 1/48th Panther and a Tamiya 1/48th Panther to make a side by side picture so some of the newer members can see the difference in quality?
stef29
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 10:10 AM UTC
I don't think it's spoiled, it's just progress. You can still choose to buy old kits at lower cost and improve them with scratch rather than with AM. I agree with the several posts regarding price; too expensive / not too expensive based on expectations of a certain level of quality? That's personal opinion. Don't buy what you don't like. If that means you can't get the subject you desire so be it. But on the bright side it puts you back in Shep's golden age.
Wierdy
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 12:51 PM UTC
Another aspect of this depravity is our demand of low prices, no matter what is actually put into boxes, no matter how many parts/materials/options a particular kit can provide. One more thing we want (well, many of us) is accuracy, even if it is company's first release. The outcome is somewhat contradictory:
where are Skybow, Tristar and Xact? They had the best replicas of what they produced, but they were too small to compete...and there is Trumpeter with tonnes of crap and steady position on the market. That's weird and sad.
Headhunter506
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 12:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Another aspect of this depravity is our demand of low prices, no matter what is actually put into boxes, no matter how many parts/materials/options a particular kit can provide. One more thing we want (well, many of us) is accuracy, even if it is company's first release. The outcome is somewhat contradictory:
where are Skybow, Tristar and Xact? They had the best replicas of what they produced, but they were too small to compete...and there is Trumpeter with tonnes of crap and steady position on the market. That's weird and sad.



It's a well known fact in the retail business that if the price is low enough, crap sells.
Hederstierna
#247
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 02:03 PM UTC
I think it depends on how you look at it. In my oppinion are the spoiled ones the people, who constantly complains about every new kit which hits the market. The ones who, even before real pictures of the kit has been released, start nit-picking and nag about could be errors or wrong dimensions etc. Those are the ones who's spoiled.
Just my two cents worth.
Jacob
The_musings_of_NBNoG
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 02:54 PM UTC


Ok ...my 2 cents....

((to the above poster .. yes cheap sells,
but the long-term distribution properties -> "Long Tail"
sells more - see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_tail))

Yes! I find all these kits wonderful,,,, all the new quality choices!

I am enjoying the heck out of it !!!!!

I started building models Loooong ago: ((see bio))
I remember when a modeler's offerings were sparse,
and model makers were 'spoiled' with the many Tamiya top of the line - (and Often motorized) kits, offered at large prices (at that time).
It made one think "it couldn't get better",,, (other than, just wishing for a greater diversity in the offerings of tanks).

I feel the explosion of quality models is occurring due to the access granted to internet users through ubiquitous use of the computer. Not only that, but the quality that used be achievable in molds manufactured back then, has been made cheaper due to computers. This has also brought the cost of higher quality molds down.

I recently walked into a major distributor's B&M store, and the same kit I had just bought for $60
(with alot of reviews and builds accessible on the web)
was sitting on a shelf for $145... with nothing other than the pictures on the box.

In the old days knowledge went hand in hand with age,
I'm not so sure that an 17yr old is gonna walk into a B&M and slap down $145 of cash when he has a phone in his pocket with more computing power than all the Apollo missions combined.

And they can find the kit cheaper and easier with an on line price; ... than it is to coordinate a ride to the mall.
(remember YOUR younger days; trying to get to the hobby store? .... Now every 13 year old has a Smart phone, and UPS will deliver!)

Currently, the(B&M) middleman is being cut out;
These are the same profits the originators are basking in ...at the moment.
And here is where they re-investing... in higher quality/higher cost...higher profit... going directly to the originator's purse. I feel this is driving this current expansion of quality, and choices.

There once was an important feed back that B&M provided....
"looking forward" reflecting the personal choices feedback that an on line manufacturer/online distributor would not get; because they don't operate face to face.

( we all know how Facebook feedback SO clearly reflects the greater gestalt...NOT! )

The people driving this golden age are older (than 25) modelers who learned to value a well made kit, and have the excess money to make these $100+ purchase and the free time to make them.

At this point the money I've invested in making a quality M1ABV...

...is equivalent to a large flat screen and a game console. (( easily available for purchase on anyone's smart phone, ... free shipping is included.))



Interesting times...



((B&M = Brick and Mortar, .. ie.. Local hobby store))

KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 04:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I have gotten lazy and critical at the same time. I don't want to work a ton just to get a crap kit passable. I want it to fall together with precision. I don't want to struggle with a crap kit to get it to look authentic. I want it to look like an exact miniature of the real vehicle. I no longer look forward to building an Emhar mark IV. I now look forward to Tamiya's Mark IV. (I have even been known to sell an older unbuilt kit just to replace it with a newer better quality kit of the same vehicle). Sad isn't it? I started with Aurora 1/48th scale tanks and aircraft. Todays are so much nicer!!!



Another metric that's failed to keep pace with the times is the definition of "crap". Perhaps you remember how many people derided the Tamiya Mk IV because it was motorizable and not as detailed as the Takom or Meng kits. I think that is exactly what the original poster was talking about. People talk about the Trumpeter T-62 as if it was no better - by any measure - than the Tamiya T-62. THAT is definitely a spoiled modeler.


Quoted Text

Does anyone have an old Aurora 1/48th Panther and a Tamiya 1/48th Panther to make a side by side picture so some of the newer members can see the difference in quality?



I don't, but the differences will be obvious and dramatic. The point of this thread, however, are the "spoiled modelers" who are placing a 1990s Tamiya Panther beside a DML Panther and claiming that the difference is just as stark.

Perspective plays a large part in good judgement but I don't think many people understand the concept these days.

KL
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 04:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I think that when you pay top dollar for kits now,you expect a lot,you should get what you pay for,and some folks are disappointed when manufacturers cut corners and still charge top dollar,like a lot of the Dragon re-pops.So I don't think it's being spoiled,it's getting what you pay for when you pay big bucks for a kit.



I think people haven't adjusted their mental "top dollar" figure to keep up with the times. A run-of-the-mill tank kit has an MSRP of $60 or more these days. That's just the new normal. When people expect every $60 2016 kit to have advanced the state of the art (over yesterday's release) to the same amount as a 2000 $60 kit did over a 1995 kit, they are going to be disappointed. You can call that spoiled, or maybe deluded.

Today's reality is that you are not paying "top dollar" for a 1/35 tank kit unless you are paying $100 or more. Sixty dollars is still a lot of money (so is $40) but it's what you have to pay to get merely a "decent" kit in 2016. It won't get you "amazing".

KL



Hi, Kurt! And, Hello to everyone else!

I AGREE, MOST EMPHATICALLY!

You're absolutely right when you say that $100 (retail) is a price that fits a "top dollar" kit- The "average price" IS anywhere between $50-60 dollars a pop (ditto, retail) for an "average" new kit. There are exceptions, of course, and if anyone wants to buy a kit for LESS than the average retail price for a kit, the thing to do is to surf online. Sadly, local hobby shops can no longer compete with the "discounted pricing" that is offered by huge online domestic hobby houses, and still more so when one goes online to ebay to check out the Asian vendors' pricing, which in many cases, will be substantially less than MSRP. Watch out for exorbitant shipping charges, though...
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 - 06:09 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I have gotten lazy and critical at the same time. I don't want to work a ton just to get a crap kit passable. I want it to fall together with precision. I don't want to struggle with a crap kit to get it to look authentic. I want it to look like an exact miniature of the real vehicle. I no longer look forward to building an Emhar mark IV. I now look forward to Tamiya's Mark IV. (I have even been known to sell an older unbuilt kit just to replace it with a newer better quality kit of the same vehicle). Sad isn't it? I started with Aurora 1/48th scale tanks and aircraft. Todays are so much nicer!!!



Another metric that's failed to keep pace with the times is the definition of "crap". Perhaps you remember how many people derided the Tamiya Mk IV because it was motorizable and not as detailed as the Takom or Meng kits. I think that is exactly what the original poster was talking about. People talk about the Trumpeter T-62 as if it was no better - by any measure - than the Tamiya T-62. THAT is definitely a spoiled modeler.


Quoted Text

Does anyone have an old Aurora 1/48th Panther and a Tamiya 1/48th Panther to make a side by side picture so some of the newer members can see the difference in quality?



I don't, but the differences will be obvious and dramatic. The point of this thread, however, are the "spoiled modelers" who are placing a 1990s Tamiya Panther beside a DML Panther and claiming that the difference is just as stark.

Perspective plays a large part in good judgement but I don't think many people understand the concept these days.

KL



Once gain, I'm in full agreement with Kurt's observations-

I started building models in the late 1950s, and I've been "at it" ever since, so I've seen at first hand how much better models have become, quite literally, through their entire evolution thus far. Personally, I'm glad that we have so many excellent kits to choose from in this "golden era"- I'm sure that there will be quite a few more of these "golden eras" as time progresses- We've already had about a half dozen of these "golden eras" since the 1950s. I don't need to go into detail.

Those among us who have been building for some time, even over the last 5-20 years or so, can point to the remarkable advances that we've seen in the model industry over that limited time frame with quite a bit of authority.

"Spoiled modellers"? Yes, they exist, IMO. Like Kurt says, it's a matter of "perspective". By the same token, there are many of us that do appreciate the advances that have been made possible by CAD and Slide Molding Technology, aided by the vast myriad of technical information available through the various media and by actual examples in quite a few museums, besides.

As to pricing, it's really relative and "in tune" to our present time. Making judgements as to what constitutes "good stuff" over "crap" depends upon what is being compared. To say that TRUMPETER's T-62 series of kits are only marginally better than the old TAMIYA T-62 kits is, IMO, unrealistic. It's like comparing a 1980s-1990s Ford, Buick, or Chevy to a 2015 or '16 example. Someone needs an attitude check, or do an actual "side-by-side" comparison of the two T-62 kits in order to form a proper opinion. That goes for a multitude of kits that came out in the 1980s and '90s that are now being labeled as "crap" (by some people), when compared to what we have been buying over the last 5 years or so.

Rather than go into another tiresome diatribe over DRAGON/CYBERHOBBY/BLACK PLAGUE kits that have been "improved" with sub-standard "NEW!!!" features and retailing for more money than comparable kits coming from other manufacturers, suffice it to say that I can see how quite a few modellers are put off by D/C/B-P's strategy to swell their own coffers. This is not a case of modellers being "spoiled", rather, it is that quite a few of us feel that we are being ripped-off. Buy that "sub-standard" D/C/B-P kit or don't buy it- It's as simple as that.

"Spoiled" is when some modellers go out and buy that $60+ kit and expect it to be entirely "perfect", i.e: devoid of ANY defects, needing required corrections and/or purchase of aftermarket "correction parts/kits", updates or what have you. The problem is expecting perfection when it clearly isn't possible. There is ALWAYS room for error in ANY kit, no matter how much it costs. THAT'S why there are so many aftermarket companies out there, offering wares to assuage our injured feelings until a "superior" example of that particular subject comes along from either another manufacturer, or an "improved" kit is released by the original manufacturer of the kit in question. Still, whichever the case may be, ANY kit, (even the latest), can always stand for some improvement, no matter how miniscule.

So, to the "spoiled" modellers, I just say, "deal with it"...

 _GOTOTOP