Figures I'd start my Trumpeter T64 collection with the one that barely was documented...
I've cruised through Prime Portal, Dish Models and googled my way around (mostly in English, but a little cyrillic too) and not come across ANY pictures of the vehicle depicted as the Trumpeter kit #01581
Anybody got links to online references or books featuring pics of this vehicle?
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T64B 1975 more photos/references?
MLD
Joined: July 21, 2002
KitMaker: 3,569 posts
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Posted: Friday, May 20, 2016 - 06:33 AM UTC
marcb
Joined: March 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,244 posts
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Posted: Friday, May 20, 2016 - 01:35 PM UTC
This movie shows one for a few seconds
https://youtu.be/BcnV4vWvZK0?t=1m54s
https://youtu.be/BcnV4vWvZK0?t=1m54s
JimboHUN
Joined: May 07, 2009
KitMaker: 461 posts
Armorama: 443 posts
Posted: Friday, May 20, 2016 - 02:40 PM UTC
Hi,
As far as I know the version in the box is quite rare... the ones with the side skirts normally had the smoke grenade launchers already. I wrote an article a few years ago, I will check my refs for you.
Cheers,
Adam
As far as I know the version in the box is quite rare... the ones with the side skirts normally had the smoke grenade launchers already. I wrote an article a few years ago, I will check my refs for you.
Cheers,
Adam
Anto992
Joined: June 11, 2012
KitMaker: 227 posts
Armorama: 212 posts
Posted: Friday, May 20, 2016 - 03:48 PM UTC
Mike D,
there are two very good pages on FB if you are a FB user...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/T62research/
And for the Ukrainian civil war...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/military.equipment.ukraine/
Anto
there are two very good pages on FB if you are a FB user...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/T62research/
And for the Ukrainian civil war...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/military.equipment.ukraine/
Anto
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
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Posted: Friday, May 20, 2016 - 05:17 PM UTC
Same variant ?
H.P.
H.P.
MLD
Joined: July 21, 2002
KitMaker: 3,569 posts
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 05:18 AM UTC
Thanks, that's three more pics than I already had...
marcb
Joined: March 25, 2006
KitMaker: 1,244 posts
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 03:56 PM UTC
Henri Pierre,
Those are A variants, the kit is a B variant.
Those are A variants, the kit is a B variant.
DmitryMarkov
Joined: September 17, 2015
KitMaker: 48 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 03:57 PM UTC
Unfortunately, all these three pics are A-model with modernized hull - added sideskirts and extra armor on the glassis. Not a B-model - you can see it by presence of optical rangefinder on the starboard side of the turret).
I have the B -1975 kit too and the more I study the subject, the more I realize that the thing that is pictured on the box just didn't exist in real life. It's more or less shows Object 477 which is shown on display at Great Patriotic War museum in Kiev but that is kind of Frankentank (which has features both of modernized and non-modernized A- hull, initial B- turret ) rather than machine from real Army units.
Actual B-1975 model didn't have sideskirts. More than that - bracket for missile guiding antenna should be like on Object 477 - not the solid ones used on 1981 and so on.
Photos of a reference B-1975 you can find here ( this bulid is quite accurate except the turret shape which is complete miss from Trumpeter - Miniarm turret is essential)
http://karopka.ru/forum/forum188/topic20549/
I have the B -1975 kit too and the more I study the subject, the more I realize that the thing that is pictured on the box just didn't exist in real life. It's more or less shows Object 477 which is shown on display at Great Patriotic War museum in Kiev but that is kind of Frankentank (which has features both of modernized and non-modernized A- hull, initial B- turret ) rather than machine from real Army units.
Actual B-1975 model didn't have sideskirts. More than that - bracket for missile guiding antenna should be like on Object 477 - not the solid ones used on 1981 and so on.
Photos of a reference B-1975 you can find here ( this bulid is quite accurate except the turret shape which is complete miss from Trumpeter - Miniarm turret is essential)
http://karopka.ru/forum/forum188/topic20549/
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
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Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 06:26 PM UTC
Thanks for the correction guys. I'll try to do better next time... 
H.P.
H.P.
David1988
Joined: September 18, 2014
KitMaker: 91 posts
Armorama: 91 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 09:20 PM UTC
Trumpeter has two new kits, the T-64B mod. 1984 (no ERA, SGLs at the sides of the turret) and T-64AV mod. 1984.
Does anyone know, please, are these also prototypes / frankentanks or were they in wider service?
Does anyone know, please, are these also prototypes / frankentanks or were they in wider service?
DmitryMarkov
Joined: September 17, 2015
KitMaker: 48 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 11:46 PM UTC
Missile Fire control systems for B- model were not very fast producing devices, but the production rate of tanks was quite high as was the need for modern tanks in the Army. So the priority in distribution of completed FC systems were like this: most went to T-80's, secondly some went to most lucky T-64B's and T-72 received them only after T-64 production has ended. As reserve of T-64 hulls and systems exceeded quantity of missile FC systems available, it was decided to produce some B models without missile FC systems - those tanks were called B-1 model, it could be recognized by lack of FC antenna but the bracket for it was still present. Tuchas were moved to the turret side as well. These B-1 tanks participated in Victory Day parade in Moscow in 1985 - and it was the only time T-64's could be seen in Moscow other than in museum ;-) That is what B- 1984 kit is about.
A-model was produced in parrallel with B-model due to high reserve of optical rangefinders. After ERA was introduced, A tanks equipped with ERA were called AV. And that is what AV kit is about.
Something like this.
A-model was produced in parrallel with B-model due to high reserve of optical rangefinders. After ERA was introduced, A tanks equipped with ERA were called AV. And that is what AV kit is about.
Something like this.
DmitryMarkov
Joined: September 17, 2015
KitMaker: 48 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Saturday, May 21, 2016 - 11:49 PM UTC
As for service - in a division there could be one regiment with B's , one with B-1's, and third with A's.
David1988
Joined: September 18, 2014
KitMaker: 91 posts
Armorama: 91 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 22, 2016 - 03:33 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Missile Fire control systems for B- model were not very fast producing devices, but the production rate of tanks was quite high as was the need for modern tanks in the Army. So the priority in distribution of completed FC systems were like this: most went to T-80's, secondly some went to most lucky T-64B's and T-72 received them only after T-64 production has ended. As reserve of T-64 hulls and systems exceeded quantity of missile FC systems available, it was decided to produce some B models without missile FC systems - those tanks were called B-1 model, it could be recognized by lack of FC antenna but the bracket for it was still present. Tuchas were moved to the turret side as well. These B-1 tanks participated in Victory Day parade in Moscow in 1985 - and it was the only time T-64's could be seen in Moscow other than in museum ;-) That is what B- 1984 kit is about.
A-model was produced in parrallel with B-model due to high reserve of optical rangefinders. After ERA was introduced, A tanks equipped with ERA were called AV. And that is what AV kit is about.
Something like this.
Thanks Dmitry! So the T-64B mod. 1984 is a T-64B1.
I saw tables somewhere suggesting there were more A variants in service than B1 and B variants when the former Soviet forces were repatriated. If A and B versions were being produced concurrently, and serving concurrently in individual divisions, it sounds like there must have been a lot of T-64AVs around, if both A and B received ERA around the same time?
If only Trumpeter would spell all this detail out
It is interesting stuff.DmitryMarkov
Joined: September 17, 2015
KitMaker: 48 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 22, 2016 - 12:55 PM UTC
I've found a mistake I've made - Object 477 I've mentiined before is in fact Object 447 - sorry for that.
DmitryMarkov
Joined: September 17, 2015
KitMaker: 48 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 22, 2016 - 03:28 PM UTC
David 1988, after former Western Group of Forces returning, most their T-64's were moved to storage bases for conservation.
As for quantities of AV's - I've heard/read that not all A's received ERA - only most "fresh" ones.
As for quantities of AV's - I've heard/read that not all A's received ERA - only most "fresh" ones.
Hellrabbit
Joined: June 28, 2015
KitMaker: 139 posts
Armorama: 139 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 22, 2016 - 11:18 PM UTC
T-64 family always got upgraded during that era. especially the T-64B.. mod 1975 in fact at the very beginning has the early side skirt like T-64A mod.1972. you can also find the parts in that kit. as for the kit itself. Actually it is a rebuild upgraded version of mod1975/76 which without smoke charger. and a mod1976 radio guide box mount. and also the late version side skirt. the kit itself has no problem. the only problem is the name and the history of T-64 may made you confused.
DmitryMarkov
Joined: September 17, 2015
KitMaker: 48 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Monday, May 23, 2016 - 01:16 PM UTC
No confusion at all :-)
1. The tank config shown on boxart of Trumpy B 1975 is more or less close only to Object 447 in Kiev which is Frankentank used for tests. There are no pics of machines in such config. in Army units. I mean the combination of solid sideskirts, early type of OPVT bracket ( which is feature of A mod), lack of extra armor on glassis, and lack of Tucha's on the turret.
2. The kit HAS a problem that cannot be solved easily which is turret's shape. Miniarm turret is essential if you want your model to look like it's prototype. It's not so crucial for later BV, AV since they've got ERA that masks wrong shape.
3. To build B 1975 mod. you need to use turning shields ( we call them Ushi ( ears) ) instead of solid sideskirts which were introduced even later than Tucha (smoke dischargers).
4. The other possible config is a combo of turning shields and turret with Tucha. It would be a 1979 mod
To be continued
1. The tank config shown on boxart of Trumpy B 1975 is more or less close only to Object 447 in Kiev which is Frankentank used for tests. There are no pics of machines in such config. in Army units. I mean the combination of solid sideskirts, early type of OPVT bracket ( which is feature of A mod), lack of extra armor on glassis, and lack of Tucha's on the turret.
2. The kit HAS a problem that cannot be solved easily which is turret's shape. Miniarm turret is essential if you want your model to look like it's prototype. It's not so crucial for later BV, AV since they've got ERA that masks wrong shape.
3. To build B 1975 mod. you need to use turning shields ( we call them Ushi ( ears) ) instead of solid sideskirts which were introduced even later than Tucha (smoke dischargers).
4. The other possible config is a combo of turning shields and turret with Tucha. It would be a 1979 mod
To be continued
DmitryMarkov
Joined: September 17, 2015
KitMaker: 48 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Monday, May 23, 2016 - 04:10 PM UTC
Other important thing - shape of snorkel bracket. A-models have angular construction and B-models on all the pictures I've seen have half-tubular kind with grill on it (except for Object 447 which is not a reference B- one). I still couldn't find any info on when this change took place.
You can find both kinds of snorkel bracket in the Trumpy kit (later type goes in plastic, earlier photo-etch). The grill also can be found in Voyager set for Trumpy B- 1975.
You can find both kinds of snorkel bracket in the Trumpy kit (later type goes in plastic, earlier photo-etch). The grill also can be found in Voyager set for Trumpy B- 1975.
MLD
Joined: July 21, 2002
KitMaker: 3,569 posts
Armorama: 2,070 posts
Posted: Monday, May 23, 2016 - 05:15 PM UTC
Dmitry,
Thank you so much for weighing in with such good information.
I guess this build will just be finished and not taken too seriously in a historic sense..
If nothing else it is at least better than the AEF, Skif and more affordable than the old Accurate Armor offering.
Thank you so much for weighing in with such good information.
I guess this build will just be finished and not taken too seriously in a historic sense..
If nothing else it is at least better than the AEF, Skif and more affordable than the old Accurate Armor offering.
DmitryMarkov
Joined: September 17, 2015
KitMaker: 48 posts
Armorama: 48 posts
Posted: Monday, May 23, 2016 - 06:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Dmitry,
Thank you so much for weighing in with such good information.
I guess this build will just be finished and not taken too seriously in a historic sense..
You are welcome )
Jacques
Joined: March 04, 2003
KitMaker: 4,630 posts
Armorama: 4,498 posts
Posted: Monday, May 23, 2016 - 11:04 PM UTC
production numbers from Zaloga via Concord is:
T-64A ~4600
T-64AK command tank ~ 780
T-64B ~4200
T-64B1 ~1200
In January of 1980 the (flipper) "Eloshka" panels on the sides were replaced by rubber side skirts on the T-64A's.
As many have eluded to, the T-64 production design was constantly being tweaked while in production.
T-64B was accepted for production in September of 1976.
The final batch of T-64A, which had the new T-64B turret with improved armor, the SGL's, the rubber side skirts, and the 1A33 Ob Fire Control System w/LRF (and other details) was completed in January of 1981.
Plus when any T-64 came in for capital rebuilding, it was brought up to current standards, but not always uniformly as not all rebuilding facilities were at the same technical level (Khrakov both built and rebuilt the T-64, so they had all the parts and technicians needed, for example...)
So the idea of "Frankentanks", where pictures seem to show some weird combinations, is not too far off.
With all this in mind, my advice is this: If you want to build a T-64...just have fun building the kit, Trumpeter's kits are more than good enough for the "normal" builder. IF you want a ACCURATE T-64, find a picture of what you like and model from that so you have what you want. There are so many small variations in between that we can discuss (argue) it out until all the T-64's have rusted into dust.
T-64A ~4600
T-64AK command tank ~ 780
T-64B ~4200
T-64B1 ~1200
In January of 1980 the (flipper) "Eloshka" panels on the sides were replaced by rubber side skirts on the T-64A's.
As many have eluded to, the T-64 production design was constantly being tweaked while in production.
T-64B was accepted for production in September of 1976.
The final batch of T-64A, which had the new T-64B turret with improved armor, the SGL's, the rubber side skirts, and the 1A33 Ob Fire Control System w/LRF (and other details) was completed in January of 1981.
Plus when any T-64 came in for capital rebuilding, it was brought up to current standards, but not always uniformly as not all rebuilding facilities were at the same technical level (Khrakov both built and rebuilt the T-64, so they had all the parts and technicians needed, for example...)
So the idea of "Frankentanks", where pictures seem to show some weird combinations, is not too far off.
With all this in mind, my advice is this: If you want to build a T-64...just have fun building the kit, Trumpeter's kits are more than good enough for the "normal" builder. IF you want a ACCURATE T-64, find a picture of what you like and model from that so you have what you want. There are so many small variations in between that we can discuss (argue) it out until all the T-64's have rusted into dust.
David1988
Joined: September 18, 2014
KitMaker: 91 posts
Armorama: 91 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 - 12:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextDmitry,
Thank you so much for weighing in with such good information.
I guess this build will just be finished and not taken too seriously in a historic sense..
You are welcome )
Dmitry, thank you from me too for all your detailed info! I will save all this somewhere, maybe one day I will build one of the variants I asked about
MLD
Joined: July 21, 2002
KitMaker: 3,569 posts
Armorama: 2,070 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 - 06:10 PM UTC
Jacques,
I had originally had hopes of this being an AMPS Nats build for next year, but I'm going to have to downshift to something I have a bit better handle on, reference-wise.
It will look good off the shelf of shame and in the display case for sure. 99% of people who see it will not know what it is anyway...
In the end,I suppose we are spoiled with all the access to photos and 'locals' with firsthand knowledge of the subject.
Modeling sure has changed in the last 25yrs.. remember when the DML kits and Concord books were all there was??
On a related note, didn't there used to be a (German??) website devoted to the T64?
I am 2-3 computers and bookmarks lists away from those days, but I can't seem to find my way back there.
I seem to remember a bright green background on the main page. Looked like a Geocities page , but without all the popups. (now I am dating myself)
I had originally had hopes of this being an AMPS Nats build for next year, but I'm going to have to downshift to something I have a bit better handle on, reference-wise.
It will look good off the shelf of shame and in the display case for sure. 99% of people who see it will not know what it is anyway...
In the end,I suppose we are spoiled with all the access to photos and 'locals' with firsthand knowledge of the subject.
Modeling sure has changed in the last 25yrs.. remember when the DML kits and Concord books were all there was??
On a related note, didn't there used to be a (German??) website devoted to the T64?
I am 2-3 computers and bookmarks lists away from those days, but I can't seem to find my way back there.
I seem to remember a bright green background on the main page. Looked like a Geocities page , but without all the popups. (now I am dating myself)
seanmcandrews
Joined: May 09, 2009
KitMaker: 561 posts
Armorama: 553 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 - 06:17 PM UTC
MLD
Joined: July 21, 2002
KitMaker: 3,569 posts
Armorama: 2,070 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 - 06:25 PM UTC
That's the very one, it is funny though.. I seem to remember the main page being greener..
I stumbled across it back when the Skif kits came out (before I had tried to BUILD a Skif kit..Now I am firmly of the mind that Skif is a Ukranian acronym for 'kits more easily and less frustratingly carved from a frozen dog turd)
I could not get that to show up for love or money using google...
I stumbled across it back when the Skif kits came out (before I had tried to BUILD a Skif kit..Now I am firmly of the mind that Skif is a Ukranian acronym for 'kits more easily and less frustratingly carved from a frozen dog turd)
I could not get that to show up for love or money using google...
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