While working on an M65 'Atomic Annie' flatcar load, which is based on an actual photograph of an M65 loaded onto a flatcar, I decided to take a brief 'break' and construct a M6 Gun Truck which will also become a flatcar load.
Unfortunately, due to wartime censorship, I have not been able to locate a picture of M6's or WC52's loaded onto flatcars. However, based on the pictures I do have of other equipment, such as M3's and DUKW's, on railroad flatcars, I can deduce the manner in which M6's would have been secured onto a flatcar.
Due to their weight, only one M3 Half-track was loaded onto each car and the same is true for the DUKW due to its size.
Since the M6 is shorter and lighter then the M3 or DUKW, three of these 15ft long, 3.5 ton vehicles could be loaded onto each 40ft. flatcar.
What I'm wondering is if Dodge would load only M6's on a flatcar, or if they would load a mix of M6's, WC-51's, WC-54's and WC-62's on each flatcar based on the order they departed the staging area...(obviously, in the case of the WC-62, the load would consist of one WC-62 and one of the shorter vehicles).
Obviously, it would be more interesting to offer more variety by putting several of Dodge's wartime vehicles on a single flatcar, but I want to be accurate...
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M6's ship with WC-51's &/or WC-54's, 62's???
DUKWsinarow
Joined: October 08, 2007
KitMaker: 124 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 02:44 AM UTC
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 05:22 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Unfortunately, due to wartime censorship, I have not been able to locate a picture of M6's or WC52's loaded onto flatcars.
I don't think that was the reason; there were plenty of photos released of equipment o the move. You just need to look in the right places.
You need to find the vehicle's Technical Manual. It will have instructions on securing it to a flat car.
KL
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 07:15 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextUnfortunately, due to wartime censorship, I have not been able to locate a picture of M6's or WC52's loaded onto flatcars.
I don't think that was the reason; there were plenty of photos released of equipment o the move. You just need to look in the right places.
You need to find the vehicle's Technical Manual. It will have instructions on securing it to a flat car.
KL
Adding to what Kurt just wrote- Ofttimes vehicles in transit as manifest aboard WWII-era trains were covered by tarps not necessarily as security measures; Steam-era Freight Trains were notorious for belching soot not only over everything in the consist of the train, but everything within a mile of any railroad's right-of-way. American Freight Trains during WWII could be up to a couple of miles long, ESPECIALLY when the manifest was military hardware and/or vehicles of every conceivable description. The aforementioned tarps were to keep all of those Jeeps, Beeps, 4x4 1.5-ton Chevvies, 6x6 Jimmies, Tanks, TDs, Fighter Aircraft, etc, etc, from being covered in soot.
Conversely, believe it or not, Steam-era Passenger Trains were run by personnel that were the "cream-of-the-crop" of any carrier that ran Passenger Equipment, i.e: the best Engineers, Firemen, Conductors, Porters, Brakemen, Baggage Handlers, Chefs, Cooks, (YES, there WAS a big difference between a Chef and a Cook), other Kitchen Staff, Maitre D', Head Waiters, Waiters, Busboys and US Postal Personnel. Copious "Burning-of-Rome" smoke and soot emanating from Steam Passenger Locomotives was frowned upon by Management, and was considered to be evident of what was called "Sloppy-Firing". This is why only the finest and most experienced Engine Crews, i.e the Engineer and Fireman, were selected to run "Varnish", (Passenger Trains), especially the Name-Train "Limiteds", such as the finest train in the world, New York Central's "20th Century Limited". The New York Central also ran such notables as the "Commodore Vanderbilt", "The Wolverine", the "Empire State Express, and the "Southwestern Limited", among others. Pennsy's "Broadway Limited", "The Liberty", "The Congressional", and the "Senator", to name just a few Limiteds of that venerable rail giant, the Pennsylvania Railroad. Baltimore & Ohio's "Capitol Limited", Southern's "Crescent Limited" and a virtual GALAXY of other "top-flight" Limiteds that virtually every Class-1 carrier aspired to run on their systems during the heyday of rail travel, were the railroads' best advertising tools. These trains were run like 5-Star exclusive hotels on wheels, rather than the mundane "numbered trains" and locals, which were far more commonplace.
Sorry to have strayed off the main subject, but I suggest that American Military Vehicles and other equipment, more often than not, were covered with tarps to keep them clean. There IS however, enough photographic evidence that shows un-covered equipment, as well. Use your own judgement...
Also, if there were a mix of Dodge WC-series vehicles assigned to a particular Freight Manifest, it stands to reason that they would be organized as to type, i.e WC51s with WC51s, etc. However, there is always an exception to the rule. You may have an occurrence of the last M6, or the last WC54 Ambulance, for example, in the Freight Manifest loaded aboard a Flat Car with two WC51s or what-have-you, to make the most efficient use of the available space. It could, and did happen. Therefore, you'd be entirely correct in loading your WC62/63 with two WC51s, or one WC51 with a WC54, or an M6, or a WC56, or even a stray 1/4-ton Jeep, if you wish. The idea was the most efficient use of available space aboard the train- Let the Motor Pool Personnel sort things out once the vehicles arrived at their destinations...
GOOD LUCK!
DUKWsinarow
Joined: October 08, 2007
KitMaker: 124 posts
Armorama: 100 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 05:48 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Sorry to have strayed off the main subject, but I suggest that American Military Vehicles and other equipment, more often than not, were covered with tarps to keep them clean. There IS however, enough photographic evidence that shows un-covered equipment, as well. Use your own judgement...
GOOD LUCK!
Mr. Struk;
I also initially believed that military equipment being moved by rail would have been covered by tarps. However, when looking for pictures to determine if these vehicles received form fitting canvas 'wraps', or if generic tarps were used, I was unable to find a picture of a single military vehicle, either from WWII or current, being shipped under a tarp and found plenty of pictures of these vehicles being shipped in the open, on flatcars.
While this is understandable in regards to equipment like the M4 Sherman, which was designed to survive harsh battlefield conditions and should not be effected by the elements or soot from the locomotive, I'm honestly surprised that they did not cover some of the more sensitive equipment like the M65 or M2 'Long Tom'.
I've provided pictures belo of a wide variety of this equipment, all of which is traveling uncovered on flatcars.
M65 Atomic Cannon;
M2 'Long Tom' Cannon;
The entire 1st Armored Division;
T2 Recovery Vehicle;
M1917's destine for Canada;
M3 Half-Tracks
(Rock Hill, SC 1941)
Jeeps;
M3 Lee;
M4 Sherman;
(This M4 was photographed in 1960 on the LIRR)
LCVP;
PT-Boat;
Germans moving a captured P-51 by rail;
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 08:47 PM UTC
WC-56's....
"Dodge WC27 1/2 ton ambulances and CCKW 2 1/2 ton trucks loaded on railway flat cars for shipment from manufacturing plants to points of embarkation, circa 1941."
H.P.
"Dodge WC27 1/2 ton ambulances and CCKW 2 1/2 ton trucks loaded on railway flat cars for shipment from manufacturing plants to points of embarkation, circa 1941."
H.P.
165thspc
#521
Joined: April 13, 2011
KitMaker: 9,465 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 09:08 PM UTC
Fantastic report guys, kudos!
Dennis your piece about Railroad "Varnish" is well written and "right on"!
Attn: Pat S. - I think an awful lot of guys would like a US railroad flat car in 35th scale to pose more of their Allied armor in transport mode.
Dennis your piece about Railroad "Varnish" is well written and "right on"!
Attn: Pat S. - I think an awful lot of guys would like a US railroad flat car in 35th scale to pose more of their Allied armor in transport mode.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
WC-56's....
"Dodge WC27 1/2 ton ambulances and CCKW 2 1/2 ton trucks loaded on railway flat cars for shipment from manufacturing plants to points of embarkation, circa 1941."
H.P.
The two vehicles shown loaded aboard the Rock Island Line Flat Car are Dodge WC56/57 Scout/Command Cars, not WC27 1/2-ton "Ambulances". Also, there are no CCKW352 or CCKW353 2 1/2-ton 6x6 Trucks anywhere in that photo.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:24 AM UTC
Quoted Text
WC-56's....
"Dodge WC27 1/2 ton ambulances and CCKW 2 1/2 ton trucks loaded on railway flat cars for shipment from manufacturing plants to points of embarkation, circa 1941."
H.P.
Hi, Tyler! As I said, the vehicles were covered with tarps to keep them from being inundated by soot, not necessarily to protect them from it. Funny that you should bring up the subject of not being able to find any photos of US Equipment being covered by tarps. It's possible that you just may not have come across any photos yet of US Equipment that were covered by tarps among the hundreds of thousands of wartime photos that are available from thousands of different sources. It would be a daunting task, even by searching the 'net.
I happen to have several books in my other house clearly showing US WWII Vehicles covered by tarps. I'm not about to make a 126-mile trip to my other house, and then having to dig through a mountain of packing-boxes filled with hundreds of other books to argue this point- I have no intention of entering into a donnybrook over this. It's just not worth it.
GREAT pics, BTW...
Thanks for the acknowledgement regarding the WWII-era Freight and Passenger Trains, Mike...
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:47 AM UTC
Hi Dennis
The caption you've quoted was refering to the picture below which has mysteriously desappeared from my previous post...
Covered M3 tanks in the background of the picture below :
"M-3 Lee medium tank manufacture at the Chrysler-operated Detroit Arsenal Tank Plant, Warren, MI, circa 1941"
H.P.
The caption you've quoted was refering to the picture below which has mysteriously desappeared from my previous post...
Covered M3 tanks in the background of the picture below :
"M-3 Lee medium tank manufacture at the Chrysler-operated Detroit Arsenal Tank Plant, Warren, MI, circa 1941"
H.P.
srmalloy
Joined: April 15, 2012
KitMaker: 336 posts
Armorama: 298 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I also initially believed that military equipment being moved by rail would have been covered by tarps. However, when looking for pictures to determine if these vehicles received form fitting canvas 'wraps', or if generic tarps were used, I was unable to find a picture of a single military vehicle, either from WWII or current, being shipped under a tarp and found plenty of pictures of these vehicles being shipped in the open, on flatcars.
Sometimes it takes a little digging. However, the evidence is thin; I could only find a couple of examples; as you say, the vast majority appear to be simply chained down:
The page image on Wikipedia for 'flatcar' shows tanks under tarps in Detroit from 1943:
From a Chrysler page about its military production:
It's not relevant to the thread, but the same site has a fascinating color photo of the 'Eggbeater', the engine that Chrysler engineers built from five six-cylinder Chrysler engines when they were informed that the supply of Wright aircraft engines would become insufficient to meet production requirements for the M3 Medium:
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 01:31 AM UTC
This one is for Tyler 
H.P.
H.P.
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 06:06 AM UTC
Folks,
There's a book entitled "America's Fighting Railroads" by Don DeNevi. It's a pretty fascinating read, discussing the national railroads (UP, SF, Frisco, B&O etc) but also the US Military Railway Service war effort during WWII. Lots of photos of motive power, rail cars, car carriers, etc. and some interesting load outs and insight into the National railway war effort which was huge. Not to stir up a discussion about tarping, but in my 30 years in the military, I did a lot of rail loading. Tarps are a liability, they get stolen, ripped, snagged and holed. They are also a liability for the railroads, as they can come loose and drag. They certainly don't disguise military loads well. Add to that the hazards of fire (remember during WWII, most of the motive power was coal fired steam) which still could produce embers and fire is another reason tarps are not ideal. Not to say it wasn't done, it likely was, but it doesn't seem to be the most common in photos for "operational" units. This is an excerpt from the AFRs book:
"...Southern Pacific put a 21 man crew, bridge men, to assist in blocking and bracing and wiring the material--this will effect a little faster movement because we have run into difficulty on the same material loaded by Army personnel by having to stop trains en route for re-stacking and re-wiring cars. Another difficulty we ran into was the procurement officer at Camp Hulen had no money to buy material for the necessary blocking and bracing; this also slowed up operations." (pg 9, AFR)
This is from early on in the war (Dec 11th 1941 to be sure) but it kind of explains something-- if you can't afford blocking and bracing, how can you afford tarps? And if you need to check loads, tarps covering it are a liability. Although it's not directly mentioned in AFRs, you get a feeling that speed is another consideration for load outs, and the ability to see what's on a train quickly-- to determine if loads are optimal for locomotive power--a tarp for a military vehicle load is kind of wasted effort. The war effort was total-- fabric, food, strategic metals, rubber, were all in short supply. I'm not trying to stir up an argument by saying tarping wasn't done, but this helps explain why it wasn't commonly done.
VR, Russ
There's a book entitled "America's Fighting Railroads" by Don DeNevi. It's a pretty fascinating read, discussing the national railroads (UP, SF, Frisco, B&O etc) but also the US Military Railway Service war effort during WWII. Lots of photos of motive power, rail cars, car carriers, etc. and some interesting load outs and insight into the National railway war effort which was huge. Not to stir up a discussion about tarping, but in my 30 years in the military, I did a lot of rail loading. Tarps are a liability, they get stolen, ripped, snagged and holed. They are also a liability for the railroads, as they can come loose and drag. They certainly don't disguise military loads well. Add to that the hazards of fire (remember during WWII, most of the motive power was coal fired steam) which still could produce embers and fire is another reason tarps are not ideal. Not to say it wasn't done, it likely was, but it doesn't seem to be the most common in photos for "operational" units. This is an excerpt from the AFRs book:
"...Southern Pacific put a 21 man crew, bridge men, to assist in blocking and bracing and wiring the material--this will effect a little faster movement because we have run into difficulty on the same material loaded by Army personnel by having to stop trains en route for re-stacking and re-wiring cars. Another difficulty we ran into was the procurement officer at Camp Hulen had no money to buy material for the necessary blocking and bracing; this also slowed up operations." (pg 9, AFR)
This is from early on in the war (Dec 11th 1941 to be sure) but it kind of explains something-- if you can't afford blocking and bracing, how can you afford tarps? And if you need to check loads, tarps covering it are a liability. Although it's not directly mentioned in AFRs, you get a feeling that speed is another consideration for load outs, and the ability to see what's on a train quickly-- to determine if loads are optimal for locomotive power--a tarp for a military vehicle load is kind of wasted effort. The war effort was total-- fabric, food, strategic metals, rubber, were all in short supply. I'm not trying to stir up an argument by saying tarping wasn't done, but this helps explain why it wasn't commonly done.
VR, Russ
DUKWsinarow
Joined: October 08, 2007
KitMaker: 124 posts
Armorama: 100 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 06:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
This one is for Tyler
H.P.
Thank you Frenchy!!!!
I always prefer to copy an actual prototype, captured in a photo, so I can be sure that my model is accurate, if nothing else, to the moment the picture was taken...
Since I now have a photographed prototype to copy, I will try to do so as closely as possible, right down to the chalk(?) 'X' in the front bumper of the M6 (which I think I could do with a 1 bristle brush...)
Better yet, the 1/64th Scale 'Rex' white-metal flatcar I was already planning to use is ever similar (if not identical) to the 'Rock (Island)' one in the photograph...
To perfectly copy this prototype, can you help me confirm that the vehicle in front of the M6 is likely a CCKW based on what little of it we can see??? If this is the case, then to perfectly re-produce the prototype, I too will build a CCKW to share the flatcar with the M6...
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 07:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I also initially believed that military equipment being moved by rail would have been covered by tarps. However, when looking for pictures to determine if these vehicles received form fitting canvas 'wraps', or if generic tarps were used, I was unable to find a picture of a single military vehicle, either from WWII or current, being shipped under a tarp and found plenty of pictures of these vehicles being shipped in the open, on flatcars.
Photographs of identifiable objects are more interesting and tell the "Arsenal of Democracy" story better than photos of blocky tarps. Thus, they are more likely to be taken.
This phenomenon has been identified with railroad photography. Pictures of unusual cars abound while the ubiquitous, mundane, plainly marked boxcars are usually only seen in backgrounds or long shots.
That being said, early on in production M3 and M4 Sherman medium tanks were shipped tarped. After the lessons of packaging and preservation for overseas shipment were learned tanks (and nearly all military equipment) were shipped sealed but untarped. A trip between the factory and an ordnance depot (where final modifications were added and overseas sealing was done) may have been tarped or with minimal sealing.
With trucks you must also consider that large numbers of vehicles were shipped knocked down to save volume and fully boxed. No tarp needed, but nothing to see, either.
KL
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
Armorama: 3,947 posts
Posted: Friday, June 10, 2016 - 05:27 PM UTC
Tyler: you're doing this in 1/64? You already have a 1/64 scale M6 37mm GMC available or planned? Kudos to you. The CCKW in the photo to the left is a typical closed cab CCKW 2.5 ton long wheelbase truck.
The vehicle on the same flat bed as the M6 GMC seems to be the same -- notice the right rear corner of the cargo bed. The rear gate is lowered and there is stowage protruding out of the cargo bed. I'd say it's another CCKW -- long or short wheelbase can't be determined.
The vehicle on the same flat bed as the M6 GMC seems to be the same -- notice the right rear corner of the cargo bed. The rear gate is lowered and there is stowage protruding out of the cargo bed. I'd say it's another CCKW -- long or short wheelbase can't be determined.
DUKWsinarow
Joined: October 08, 2007
KitMaker: 124 posts
Armorama: 100 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 12:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Tyler: you're doing this in 1/64? You already have a 1/64 scale M6 37mm GMC available or planned? Kudos to you.
Roy,
I'm actually using an Ertl "1:72" M6 as a load on an S-scale (1:64th scale)Rex flatcar, which will operate on a 1:64th scale layout.
I'm not sure if this is due to "overscaling" by Ertl or the relatively small margin of difference between 1:64 and 1:72 but many 1:72 models, especially those produced by Ertl , are only a few thousandths off from being 1:64.
So long as a 1:72 vehicle is not situated next to a 'Greenlight' vehicle (which claim to be 1:64 but are known to be on the 'large side) then it will look fine, especially since there will likely never be a 1:64 M6/WC52 to compare it to. Furthermore, being on the deck of a flatcar makes it difficult to compare this truck to a similar truck and spot the minute difference...
Quoted Text
The CCKW in the photo to the left is a typical closed cab CCKW 2.5 ton long wheelbase truck.
The vehicle on the same flat bed as the M6 GMC seems to be the same -- notice the right rear corner of the cargo bed. The rear gate is lowered and there is stowage protruding out of the cargo bed. I'd say it's another CCKW -- long or short wheelbase can't be determined.
While I would love to build a short-wheelbase AFKWX CCKW (especially because of how much it resembles the trucks in 'Fallout'), I suspect that because the rest of the CCKW's in the train are standard CCKW's, the one on the flatcar is also a standard CCKW (the AFKWX will become a load on a future flatcar)...
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 01:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
the AFKWX will become a load on a future flatcar
You probably know about the one released by Fankit
H.P.
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 03:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Hi Dennis
The caption you've quoted was refering to the picture below which has mysteriously desappeared from my previous post...
Covered M3 tanks in the background of the picture below :
"M-3 Lee medium tank manufacture at the Chrysler-operated Detroit Arsenal Tank Plant, Warren, MI, circa 1941"
H.P.
Ahh, THANK YOU!!!
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 03:11 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Textthe AFKWX will become a load on a future flatcar
You probably know about the one released by Fankit
H.P.
Nice, but I don't model in 1/72 at all. Just for future reference, I model my AFVs and Soft-skins strictly in 1/35. I'm more open with Figurines- 1/35-120mm. My Aircraft, 1/48 exclusively. I also model in HO Brass and "High-end" Plastic Steam-era Locomotives, Passenger and Freight equipment. In Automobiles, 1/24-1/25, and in the occasional Ship model, 1/350, and my single 1/144 US Navy "Fletcher-Class" DD... I also Scratch-built one ???-scale Flying Saucer...
M4A1Sherman
Joined: May 02, 2013
KitMaker: 4,403 posts
Armorama: 4,078 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 03:16 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI also initially believed that military equipment being moved by rail would have been covered by tarps. However, when looking for pictures to determine if these vehicles received form fitting canvas 'wraps', or if generic tarps were used, I was unable to find a picture of a single military vehicle, either from WWII or current, being shipped under a tarp and found plenty of pictures of these vehicles being shipped in the open, on flatcars.
Photographs of identifiable objects are more interesting and tell the "Arsenal of Democracy" story better than photos of blocky tarps. Thus, they are more likely to be taken.
This phenomenon has been identified with railroad photography. Pictures of unusual cars abound while the ubiquitous, mundane, plainly marked boxcars are usually only seen in backgrounds or long shots.
That being said, early on in production M3 and M4 Sherman medium tanks were shipped tarped. After the lessons of packaging and preservation for overseas shipment were learned tanks (and nearly all military equipment) were shipped sealed but untarped. A trip between the factory and an ordnance depot (where final modifications were added and overseas sealing was done) may have been tarped or with minimal sealing.
With trucks you must also consider that large numbers of vehicles were shipped knocked down to save volume and fully boxed. No tarp needed, but nothing to see, either.
KL
Thanks much for clarifying!
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