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Whats is this ?Pz iv D bergepanzer or ??
milojko
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British Columbia, Canada
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 06:30 AM UTC
Can anyone help me on identifying the following :

http://ww2today.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/GERMAN-MK-IV-D-TANK.jpeg

One source has it as a turretless munitionsschleper ...another as a bergepanzer,

any more thoughts ?

Thanks Milojko
brekinapez
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 09:22 AM UTC
Well, from what I am able to see from the pic, my guess would be munitionsschlepper. I don't see any of the gear I would associate with vehicle recovery on it, but it could have been stripped off before the pic was taken.

But I'm not feeling the bergepanzer vibe.
tatbaqui
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#040
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 09:29 AM UTC
Neither ammo carrier nor a berge.

There's a pic taken from another angle that shows the blown-off turret laying by its right side. Also read that it was a Pz IV E of Pz Rgt 5.

Cheers,

Tat
tatbaqui
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#040
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 09:37 AM UTC
Here, seen from two angles:






brekinapez
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 12:09 PM UTC
So what is that sitting where the turret used to be?
rover5700
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 12:40 PM UTC
That's a good question. Everything about those pics is weird!
Vicious
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 01:04 PM UTC
loook like a kind of tent were the turret was...maybe the Aussie use like a fix MG position?...or something like that
tatbaqui
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#040
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 02:18 PM UTC
Here's a close-up:



Looks like a zeltbahn. What it covers, I don't have the slightest idea.

Pic came from http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=4072&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180. Apparently the folks in the thread are curious as well regarding this Pz IV.

Cheers,

Tat
goldnova72
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 05:07 PM UTC
Really love these pictures taken at weird angles distorting everything and leaving us to let our imaginations run amuck . In the 1st picture , the guy in the helmet seems to be standing beside the drivers hatch , but the second guy seems to be looking into a hatch located behind the drivers hatch ? And what is sticking out of the drivers vision port ? . In the second picture , it looks like someone wrapped the turret hole with a ring of track and covered it with a tarp( the vertical lines on the tarp are where its tight against the track links ) , maybe using it as a sniper post , notice rifle with scope by guy in helmets feet . And does the bow machine gun stick out too far , it looks like a mg 34 in the 1st photo but looks like a piece of pipe in the 2nd . Or maybe I just need more coffee this morning
Namabiiru
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MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
#399
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 06:09 PM UTC
Agree it looks like a camo tarp or tent wrapped around a length of track. A couple of things to consider:
1) An explosion big enough to blow the turret clean off would surely have blown the hatches as well, which doesn't seem to be the case so it appears somebody has gone round and systematically closed all the hatches back up.
2) If that is a run of tracks under that tarp, would anyone have been able to wrangle them up there without the use of a crane or derrick of some sort?

Possibly the retreating Germans dressed up an already knocked out tank to look like it was still functional? A decoy to delay or distract the enemy?

Additional armor on the front also looks like perhaps it had been repurposed as an Observation Post after being disabled. Sniper nest is possible, but seems like the whole thing would draw more attention than I would desire if I was a sniper.

This is the kind of stuff I love to speculate about.

M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 06:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Really love these pictures taken at weird angles distorting everything and leaving us to let our imaginations run amuck . In the 1st picture , the guy in the helmet seems to be standing beside the drivers hatch , but the second guy seems to be looking into a hatch located behind the drivers hatch ? And what is sticking out of the drivers vision port ? . In the second picture , it looks like someone wrapped the turret hole with a ring of track and covered it with a tarp( the vertical lines on the tarp are where its tight against the track links ) , maybe using it as a sniper post , notice rifle with scope by guy in helmets feet . And does the bow machine gun stick out too far , it looks like a mg 34 in the 1st photo but looks like a piece of pipe in the 2nd . Or maybe I just need more coffee this morning



Hi, Jim! Like you, I think I need more coffee...

No doubt about it, this set of photos open up a few conundrums; I doubt that it's a "sniper's post", but I suppose ANYTHING is possible! As to the "rolled-up Track"- Why would anyone go to the lengths of putting a very heavy "rolled-up Track" aboard an obviously knocked-out tank? I would think that any German Troops trying to load up a full-length of assembled Track would have needed a Bilstein Crane to bull it aboard this Tank, and position it so precisely. Also, what about the "Zeltbahn"? Wasn't Zeltbahn supposed to be a kind of personal "shelter" for individual soldiers of the German Army? I don't know if the German Army had large sheets of Zeltbahn available for use as tarps or for "larger" tents... ??? Personally, I haven't come across any photos of German tents or tarps made of Zeltbahn, aqside of the "personal shelters", but that's not to say that they were never made, or used as camo on large vehicles. I HAVE seen German vehicles and artillery draped with, or "tented-over" with camo netting, or what seemed like single-colored tarp material, however...

Could it have been the case of a German salvage crew that planned a recovery of this vehicle, but ran out of time and "skedaddled" as Tommies or ANZACs were approaching? Or had the Germans been captured by said Tommies or ANZACs, leaving the rifle-with-scope behind? As to the rifle-with-scope, one would think that some enterprising Tommy or ANZAC might have picked up as a "souvenier"- Unless that is frowned upon by the British and/or ANZAC powers-that-be.

Another thing is the Turret- It seems to me that if this Tank's Turret had been involved in a catastrophic explosion powerful enough to blow it off this Tank's Superstructure AND Traverse Mechanism, wouldn't it have landed a bit further away, instead of lying in such close proximity TO said Tank..?

One thing's for sure- ANYTHING is possible, until some authority who is familiar with the events unfolding in this series of photographs, can shed some light upon this "event"...

I DO NEED MORE COFFEE!!!
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 06:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Agree it looks like a camo tarp or tent wrapped around a length of track. A couple of things to consider:
1) An explosion big enough to blow the turret clean off would surely have blown the hatches as well, which doesn't seem to be the case so it appears somebody has gone round and systematically closed all the hatches back up.
2) If that is a run of tracks under that tarp, would anyone have been able to wrangle them up there without the use of a crane or derrick of some sort?

Possibly the retreating Germans dressed up an already knocked out tank to look like it was still functional? A decoy to delay or distract the enemy?

Additional armor on the front also looks like perhaps it had been repurposed as an Observation Post after being disabled. Sniper nest is possible, but seems like the whole thing would draw more attention than I would desire if I was a sniper.

This is the kind of stuff I love to speculate about.




Also agree with Mark, regarding the closed hatches and the "sniper's nest"- I think the whole "set-up" would attract too much attention to ME, if I were a German Sniper...

A "decoy"? Maybe... The Germans were very adroit in setting up traps for unwary Allied units...
tatbaqui
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#040
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 08:16 PM UTC
The second pic is in T. Jentz' Panzertruppen Vol 1. Not much info other than it was from Pz Rgt 5 and deemed lost during the 14 April 1941 attack at the Tobruk perimeter. There's a 2-volume unit history of Pz Rgt 5 entitled Panzers in the Sand -- I'd bet there'd be more info in it.

Am a bit skeptical on the rifle-with-scope affair. My take is that it is the "hatch" seen in the first pic, viewed at an awkward angle. Why a "hatch" is there is another question (for me at least as it seems to be behind the driver's hatch?). Well, If you guys need more caffeine, I guess I need to get some shut eye!

Cheers,

Tat
erichvon
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 10:46 PM UTC
I can't see a rifle with a scope anywhere even after enlarging it, It's entirely possible that with the track roll and the zelt or tarp roll draped over it (it may not be a camo zeltbahn but may be shadows from how a tarp is draped) it's entirely possible it's been used as an OP. If it was used by a sniper it would be obvious where the shot had come from but if it was an OP where the whole idea is not to be seen it would be quite useful. Lets not forget that OP's aren't neccessarily all about viewing an enemy position but can also be to monitor enemy activity, traffic in a given area etc. Something the LRDG excelled at as that was their major role, not haring round blowing stuff up as that was left to the SAS. Their role was deep recconaissance. We're probably all wrong and it's nothing but it's sparked an interesting discussion.
Namabiiru
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MODEL SHIPWRIGHTS
#399
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 11:15 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I can't see a rifle with a scope anywhere even after enlarging it, It's entirely possible that with the track roll and the zelt or tarp roll draped over it (it may not be a camo zeltbahn but may be shadows from how a tarp is draped) it's entirely possible it's been used as an OP. If it was used by a sniper it would be obvious where the shot had come from but if it was an OP where the whole idea is not to be seen it would be quite useful. Lets not forget that OP's aren't neccessarily all about viewing an enemy position but can also be to monitor enemy activity, traffic in a given area etc. Something the LRDG excelled at as that was their major role, not haring round blowing stuff up as that was left to the SAS. Their role was deep recconaissance. We're probably all wrong and it's nothing but it's sparked an interesting discussion.



I've been trying to play "Where's Waldo" with the rifle w/ scope as well, and finding nothing. There are definitely three rods/barrels/tubes of some sort sticking out the front--three times as many as I would expect to see--but none of them look like they have a scope.

Here's a thought: Suppose that turret has nothing to do with that chassis. Look how much extra frontal armor and armament the chassis has (perfectly suited for an assault on Tubruk?), and yet there doesn't appear to be any on the turret.

Is it possible the tank had already been modified to be a mobile OP or command vehicle, and it just happened to be sitting next to someone else's blown turret when it got knocked out.

Consider the words of Tom Clancy: "The difference between reality and fiction? Fiction has to make sense"

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