I was thinking about Tamiya's old Panther kit and the bad press it gets as of late. On a parallel thought I was thinking about what it takes to win a model contest. I realized that for the most part, the old Panther was still a competitive kit. What do the judges evaluate? Is it how accurate the kit is from the manufacturer? Is it how many aftermarket pieces you were able to fit on it? Maybe it was how in depth your kit conversion went? I think most judging is on fit and finish for the most part. If you took Tamiya's Panther and changed out the rubber band track for a better set that would sag correctly and did a real nice job on just building, painting and weathering you would would have a contender.
Do you think you could win with Tamiya's Panther?
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Could you win a contest with Tamiya's Panther
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 07:38 PM UTC
MLD
Joined: July 21, 2002
KitMaker: 3,569 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 07:51 PM UTC
Depends on which style of judging, which Tamiya Panther, and who else shows up with what else on the tables that day.
AMPS style judging, can be found on their site and you do not 'win' in as much as you earn a medal for the work you put in. Your build is compared to a standard for your own experience level. Points are awarded for additions and corrections to a base kit, so out of the box is difficult to earn a Gold or Silver.
IPMS style judging has always contended that 'a basic model, built to a high level out of the box without build flaws and finished to a high level without flaws can win.'
In practice, the third factor, who else shows up and what they bring to the table will influence the outcome.
You only control your build and finish.
If you are entering one of the Tamiya Panther G kits, you can do quite well, but their older (1970's ??) Ausf A kit is much more toylike, does not have the correct number of roadwheels, and would be a steeper climb to 'win'.
The newer Ausf D kit is very nice.
The real question is why are you building the model?
Are you building this model becasue you want a win at a contest?
Been there, done that.. In the end, it was less fun than building a model I liked to a level I wanted to and taking it to a show to see what else was on the tables, talk to other builders, and have a good time, 'win' or not.
But it has taken me a while to come around to this way of thinking.
My US$0.02, your mileage may vary.
Mike
AMPS style judging, can be found on their site and you do not 'win' in as much as you earn a medal for the work you put in. Your build is compared to a standard for your own experience level. Points are awarded for additions and corrections to a base kit, so out of the box is difficult to earn a Gold or Silver.
IPMS style judging has always contended that 'a basic model, built to a high level out of the box without build flaws and finished to a high level without flaws can win.'
In practice, the third factor, who else shows up and what they bring to the table will influence the outcome.
You only control your build and finish.
If you are entering one of the Tamiya Panther G kits, you can do quite well, but their older (1970's ??) Ausf A kit is much more toylike, does not have the correct number of roadwheels, and would be a steeper climb to 'win'.
The newer Ausf D kit is very nice.
The real question is why are you building the model?
Are you building this model becasue you want a win at a contest?
Been there, done that.. In the end, it was less fun than building a model I liked to a level I wanted to and taking it to a show to see what else was on the tables, talk to other builders, and have a good time, 'win' or not.
But it has taken me a while to come around to this way of thinking.
My US$0.02, your mileage may vary.
Mike
Tank1812
Joined: April 29, 2014
KitMaker: 1,112 posts
Armorama: 886 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 07:58 PM UTC
Quoted Text
IPMS style judging has always contended that 'a basic model, built to a high level out of the box without build flaws and finished to a high level without flaws can win.'
In practice, the third factor, who else shows up and what they bring to the table will influence the outcome.
You only control your build and finish.
If you are entering one of the Tamiya Panther G kits, you can do quite well, but their older (1970's ??) Ausf A kit is much more toylike, does not have the correct number of roadwheels, and would be a steeper climb to 'win'.
The newer Ausf D kit is very nice.
The real question is why are you building the model?
Are you building this model becasue you want a win at a contest?
Been there, done that.. In the end, it was less fun than building a model I liked to a level I wanted to and taking it to a show to see what else was on the tables, talk to other builders, and have a good time, 'win' or not.
But it has taken me a while to come around to this way of thinking.
I would agree with Mike with regard to IPMS contest. You can also enter in the OOB Armor category and not have to "fix" anything and just focus on basic construction, paint and finish.
SgtRam
Contributing Writer
#197
Joined: March 06, 2011
KitMaker: 3,971 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 08:02 PM UTC
With AMPS style judging, you would be marked on construction, paint, weathering, etc. Thus if you put the effort into the build, you could definitely enter it in a contest.
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 08:57 PM UTC
I agree with the other responses, but do not forget the judges are people.
I have won medals under both IPMS and AMPS rules, but the shows I enjoyed the most were those I had no models entered.
I have won medals under both IPMS and AMPS rules, but the shows I enjoyed the most were those I had no models entered.
Thirian24
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,493 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 08:57 PM UTC
I built this kit a couple months ago. I think it turned out real nice, but that my opinion of course. I will agree it needs a track upgrade, and I wish I would have used PE grills.
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 09:01 PM UTC
Mike I agree with you. Build what you like and do it well.
I was thinking of the potential to win with, by today's standards, a sub par kit. The earlyTamiya kits go together well so you would not have to face some of the Emhar's fit issues. Your investment would be within reason, not $250 dollars. Maybe $20 for the kit and $38 for the track.
I don't build for a contest very often but when I do, it is for the challenge.
I was thinking of the potential to win with, by today's standards, a sub par kit. The earlyTamiya kits go together well so you would not have to face some of the Emhar's fit issues. Your investment would be within reason, not $250 dollars. Maybe $20 for the kit and $38 for the track.
I don't build for a contest very often but when I do, it is for the challenge.
kennethc
Joined: October 04, 2006
KitMaker: 348 posts
Armorama: 78 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 09:55 PM UTC
I assume you're talking about the Panther A. The kit is rough. I know a guy that completely rebuilt one and it took a huge amount of work. Not the least of which it's missing an entire row of road wheels. The center ones are single rather than double which may or may not be an issue fitting new tracks.
Contest judging, regardless of what people say, is so subjective that there is no rhyme or reason to what wins or is awarded medals. Doing a nice build and paint job is absolutely no factor in whether you place or not. I tell my club guys all the time, Pay your money and take your chances.. Don't expect anything.
As a judge i've had to give 1st place to the least crappy model on the table and in the same day have nearly an impossible decision between two or three beautifully done works. This is why I largely avoid 1,2,3 style judging.
I personally have taken a handful of kits that won Adv Gold at AMPS Nationals to a local IPMS show a week later and got nothing. The "best armor" had large glue marks from broken off pieces. The fellowship of shows is the real win for me.
Challenges like your talking about, taking an old kit and painting it up nice are fun to think about, but in the end don't prove anything one way or the other due to how contest are normally judged.
Still, It would be cool to see you build it up and paint it.
Take care,
K
Contest judging, regardless of what people say, is so subjective that there is no rhyme or reason to what wins or is awarded medals. Doing a nice build and paint job is absolutely no factor in whether you place or not. I tell my club guys all the time, Pay your money and take your chances.. Don't expect anything.
As a judge i've had to give 1st place to the least crappy model on the table and in the same day have nearly an impossible decision between two or three beautifully done works. This is why I largely avoid 1,2,3 style judging.
I personally have taken a handful of kits that won Adv Gold at AMPS Nationals to a local IPMS show a week later and got nothing. The "best armor" had large glue marks from broken off pieces. The fellowship of shows is the real win for me.
Challenges like your talking about, taking an old kit and painting it up nice are fun to think about, but in the end don't prove anything one way or the other due to how contest are normally judged.
Still, It would be cool to see you build it up and paint it.
Take care,
K
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
Armorama: 1,808 posts
Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 10:23 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I assume you're talking about the Panther A. The kit is rough. I know a guy that completely rebuilt one and it took a huge amount of work. Not the least of which it's missing an entire row of road wheels. The center ones are single rather than double which may or may not be an issue fitting new tracks.
Contest judging, regardless of what people say, is so subjective that there is no rhyme or reason to what wins or is awarded medals. Doing a nice build and paint job is absolutely no factor in whether you place or not. I tell my club guys all the time, Pay your money and take your chances.. Don't expect anything.
As a judge i've had to give 1st place to the least crappy model on the table and in the same day have nearly an impossible decision between two or three beautifully done works. This is why I largely avoid 1,2,3 style judging.
I personally have taken a handful of kits that won Adv Gold at AMPS Nationals to a local IPMS show a week later and got nothing. The "best armor" had large glue marks from broken off pieces. The fellowship of shows is the real win for me.
Challenges like your talking about, taking an old kit and painting it up nice are fun to think about, but in the end don't prove anything one way or the other due to how contest are normally judged.
Still, It would be cool to see you build it up and paint it.
Take care,
K
K,
Well put. I took a model to a contest and as I put mine entry down I noticed another model was tilted because it had been put down with one side off the tracks. I mentioned this to the person behind the table who with great "flair" put the model down properly. We both had used the early press together Fruils.
Later when I went to get my model I noticed it was twisted on the base. I had used wire to hold it on. And, the tracks were way out of line with the road wheels. In the comments the "judge" had put down, tracks not line up and crooked. Right...
I tested how much effort it took to displace the model, and that jackxxx had to tip the base past 30 degrees and turn it by hand. Boy did he teach me a lesson!
ericadeane
Joined: October 28, 2002
KitMaker: 4,021 posts
Armorama: 3,947 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 02:52 AM UTC
I agree with the others. Build a kit that you'd like to have on your shelf for the next fifteen years -- not for a $1 medal.
Like Ken Childress said, in 1-2-3 contests, the "winner" may be the least crappy kit on the table. So sure you could win. But so what?
I highly advise you to find a kit that fulfills your building enjoyment and will get you coming back. Some kits are worth the correcting and detailing to get them up to what I consider my standards. The Tamiya Panther A kit is (and I loudly will proclaim) one of the worst and inaccurate 1/35 kits extant -- due to its continued wide appeal due to how and where it's marketed.
Could I rebuild the whole thing to make it look accurate? Yep. But my modeling time is limited. If I really want a Panther A, I'll invest in the nice Dragon version.
If you want to build the kit for yourself and find enjoyment -- go for it. That's 100% your decision. But to build it as a rebel cause to see if it could medal at a local IPMS contest? Not my cup of tea whatsoever.
Like Ken Childress said, in 1-2-3 contests, the "winner" may be the least crappy kit on the table. So sure you could win. But so what?
I highly advise you to find a kit that fulfills your building enjoyment and will get you coming back. Some kits are worth the correcting and detailing to get them up to what I consider my standards. The Tamiya Panther A kit is (and I loudly will proclaim) one of the worst and inaccurate 1/35 kits extant -- due to its continued wide appeal due to how and where it's marketed.
Could I rebuild the whole thing to make it look accurate? Yep. But my modeling time is limited. If I really want a Panther A, I'll invest in the nice Dragon version.
If you want to build the kit for yourself and find enjoyment -- go for it. That's 100% your decision. But to build it as a rebel cause to see if it could medal at a local IPMS contest? Not my cup of tea whatsoever.
Removed by original poster on 05/13/19 - 22:25:11 (GMT).
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 04:38 AM UTC
Don't know about contest winning (I only judge - I never enter!) but with a ton of scratching and some replacement tracks the old Tam Panther can be turned into something useful! I built this one for a Campaign, IIRC, based on the well-known Cologne beast.
More pics can be seen here.
More pics can be seen here.
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 09:05 AM UTC
I didn't mean to correct the Panther A's shortcomings. I know how much time that would take. I took Tamiya's Panther A and made a Panther G long before Dragon or Tamiya made one. Now that was a challenge. Reshaping the turret, reangling the hull sides. Narrowing the Mantlet, adding a chin to the mantlet, hand zimming, etc...
I ment just do the best job on fit and finish of the kit as is. Do one of those Adam Wilder paint and weathering attempts. Modulate it, filter it, wash it, pigment it.
I ment just do the best job on fit and finish of the kit as is. Do one of those Adam Wilder paint and weathering attempts. Modulate it, filter it, wash it, pigment it.
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 09:18 AM UTC
Short-hand answer: Maybe, maybe not.
Armorsmith
Joined: April 09, 2015
KitMaker: 1,063 posts
Armorama: 1,000 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 12:39 AM UTC
For what its worth-I have entered a number of APMS shows building OOB and have earned gold and silver medals at the advanced level. In my experience at an AMPS show the pedigree of the kit is really not an issue. As others have mentioned you are judged against a somewhat objective standard. So long as the kit is well constructed, painted and weathered there is no reason you could not earn a medal at an AMPS show regardless of what kit you enter. Having said that, there are those out there who believe that unless you add AM parts to the kit at a cost ratio of at least 2-3:1 you can't build a good kit. Like others have counseled build something you enjoy and have fun with it. If your efforts are worthy of a medal all good and if not, well it's not fatal. Have fun, enjoy, good luck.
easyco69
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 2,275 posts
Armorama: 2,233 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 12:58 AM UTC
buy a Dragon
Biggles2
Joined: January 01, 2004
KitMaker: 7,600 posts
Armorama: 6,110 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 07:41 PM UTC
You'd have to be one hell of a builder and painter. That old kit (45 - 50 yrs) really sucks now. 
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 08:08 PM UTC
That was my point originally. 
barkingdigger
Associate Editor#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
Armorama: 3,403 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 08:55 PM UTC
A million years ago (when dinosaurs roamed the earth...) I took junior first place at a local contest with one of these built essentially OOB. It was around 1979, and there was no aftermarket so it used the kit's rubber-band tracks and all the other known flaws, but a clean build coupled with snazzy paint and a pile of the "new" Tamiya Panzergrenadiers on the deck seemed to do the trick! These days you'd struggle to get the judges to stop laughing long enough to take in what they were seeing.
Having said that, I'd love to see a REALLY tidy build on the contest tables! It'd test the judges to see if they can truly base their decisions on build-quality and finish alone...
Having said that, I'd love to see a REALLY tidy build on the contest tables! It'd test the judges to see if they can truly base their decisions on build-quality and finish alone...
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
Armorama: 2,497 posts
Posted: Saturday, July 23, 2016 - 09:31 PM UTC
In a word; yes.
It's the build and the builder, not the kit, that wins.
You can have the Dragon kit with all the bells and whistles and a crappy build with glue marks and fingerprints and the perfectly built Tamiya kit will win. It's simply better.
Face it, the more you add to a kit the more chances for you to make a mistake that you won't be able to cover up.
A quality build is a quality build. Period.
It's the build and the builder, not the kit, that wins.
You can have the Dragon kit with all the bells and whistles and a crappy build with glue marks and fingerprints and the perfectly built Tamiya kit will win. It's simply better.
Face it, the more you add to a kit the more chances for you to make a mistake that you won't be able to cover up.
A quality build is a quality build. Period.
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