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Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
New Dragon Panther Sept 2016
easyco69
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Posted: Friday, August 19, 2016 - 08:07 PM UTC
1/35 Panther Ausf.D V2 Versuchsserie
More info




I thought they got rid of the lower rounded turret mantle to delete the shot trap deflection into the top of the thin chassis steel? They replaced it with a lower block/ square edged mantle?
MLD
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Posted: Friday, August 19, 2016 - 08:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text


I thought they got rid of the lower rounded turret mantle to delete the shot trap deflection into the top of the thin chassis steel? They replaced it with a lower block/ square edged mantle?



AFAIK, it was not until the 'late' G models that the Panther had the chin mantlet. The D's and A's had that shot trap mantlet.
erichvon
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England - East Midlands, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, August 19, 2016 - 08:29 PM UTC
Just what we need. Another one off German tank. Probably only one ever made yet it warrants a kit of it's own. I really don't understand DML at all. The paper panzers that Trumpeter brings out I can maybe see the appeal of those as if the war had continued some may have made it to the battlefield. This fascination they seem to have with vehicles where there were maybe one or two built then it was decided that they were a bad idea and were binned or building a prototype that went onto production just seems a waste of resources, much like the originals they've modelled were. They've done maybe half a dozen Tigers and Panthers now which is fair enough with different variants with and without zimmerit but prototypes? There are loads more operational vehicles that they could produce instead surely?
brekinapez
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Georgia, United States
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Posted: Friday, August 19, 2016 - 09:20 PM UTC
And why reissue a kit that really isn't that old just for, what, maybe a couple of minor changes?

Really trying to squeeze out extra mileage from those molds.
TopSmith
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Posted: Friday, August 19, 2016 - 09:26 PM UTC
Companies respond to what sells. Don't buy the prototypes and odd variants and they will quit producing them. However your choice of model kits will also diminish.
panzerbob01
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Louisiana, United States
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Posted: Friday, August 19, 2016 - 11:59 PM UTC
Every "new" kit is a NEW kit to some - whether that newness is an actual previously-unseen genuine in-service subject that hasn't seen model love, a rare one-off variant of an established item, or a what-if fantasm from a beery napkin... OR an old kit sold in a new box with new artwork. ANY kit that YOU haven't yet seen is a NEW kit, at least to YOU. And it is GUARANTEED to be new to someone else. They all SELL, and that's the POINT of making them, for kit manufacturers.

While I, too, wish for one or another currently un-kitted subject of personal interest to pop up, I cannot see any point whatsoever in getting exercised over makers putting out new kits of things I don't personally want. I just go on and look at other maker's line-ups and maybe find me something NEW to me that I WANT. NEW kits pour out in a flood from makers at this point. Sooner or later, one of these will be of genuine interest to me, and, I suspect, to YOU, too. I just cannot see getting impatient or exercised about it when some specific new want doesn't come along fast enough. Have YOU built EVERY kit you already have? Have YOU built every kit that has already come out that interests you? I haven't. By a LOOOOONG shot!

Just my opinion, folks!

OK. Back to modeling (instead of carping about kits I don't want to buy)!
kjoy
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North Dakota, United States
Joined: September 11, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 01:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Companies respond to what sells. Don't buy the prototypes and odd variants and they will quit producing them. However your choice of model kits will also diminish.



True...but a bergpanther would sell a ton more than this thing. I have a feeling their going to drop a Bergpanther G in the near future. Before next summer. Just a gut feeling.
GazzaS
#424
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Queensland, Australia
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 02:09 AM UTC
I'm of two minds with these one-offs. But why deny anyone else their fun because my pet project hasn't been released? I think gunned tanks will always outsell maintenance tanks.

Still, I can remember a certain week where seemingly every classified armor for-sale add I read had a Heuschrecke in it.

To each his own!

Gaz
tatbaqui
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#040
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Metro Manila, Philippines
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 05:22 AM UTC
Don't buy it if you don't like it, simple as that!

If it's a subject yet to be kitted or improved why not stretch oneself and scratch one -- wouldn't that be a more gratifying experience than waking up one day, your must-have kit's been out but you can't even hold your tweezers in your shaky hand? Am sure when such a must-have kit is out, there'll be a thousand and one nitpicks why a bolt was not turned the way it should be.


DerGeist
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 06:59 AM UTC
Want to bet this kit will be more accurate than their kits of tanks that actually existed?
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 07:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Just what we need. Another one off German tank. Probably only one ever made yet it warrants a kit of it's own. I really don't understand DML at all . . . There are loads more operational vehicles that they could produce instead surely?



It's quite simple really. Model companies do not exist to insure that a historically proportionate set of models is available for purchase in a particular scale. They are trying to make money.

"But if they produced X it would sell more than this stuff!"

No one on here knows that.

KL
Scarred
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 08:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Companies respond to what sells. Don't buy the prototypes and odd variants and they will quit producing them. However your choice of model kits will also diminish.



True...but a bergpanther would sell a ton more than this thing. I have a feeling their going to drop a Bergpanther G in the near future. Before next summer. Just a gut feeling.



More people know what a panther is than a bergpanther. A bergpanther would appeal to a limited number of modelers who are into recovery or engineering vehicles while a panther would attract a wider spectrum of builders. I, personally, have no interest in building a bergpanther but would like to a accurate early and late panther without having to go bankrupt buying aftermarket parts to improve a bad kit. Guess I'll just keep waiting.
davejr
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Rhode Island, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 08:37 AM UTC
with all the tanks and vehicles not done in plastic yet and they keep pumping out Panthers and tigers ! Boring ! No offense to the German armor guys but since i was a kid every magazine has an article of a build with a Panther or tiger and they keep releasing these things even if they have some minor unoticible differences how many do we need ? I got bored with ww2 German armor a long time ago ! It's like hearing your favorite song on the radio 10 times a day everyday eventually you get sick of it ! Lol anyway again I'm not trying to offend German armor guys just had to get that off my chest lol
Lokis_Tyro
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Wisconsin, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 08:52 AM UTC
Out of my own curiosity,, why are there not more complaints about missing engines or underhood inaccuracies? I'm sure I like an engine and engine build more than the next guy but it's such a bummer looking at kits with the whole assembly missing or a kit with a rectangle chunk with an intake that's supposed to pass as an engine. Are engines something that are/were dreaded to deal with during war or are they completely uninteresting to military builders?
Scarred
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:46 AM UTC
They keep making tiger and panther kits because that is where the market is. Ask someone what a bergpanther is and you will get a blank look. Ask them what a tiger is and they will say "yeah I saw one in a movie" or "that's the ultimate tank in a video game" or "that was the nazi super tank". So they can make models of an obscure variant of a rare tank and if no one buys it they are out of the money spent making the molds, marketing and and research. That's why resin companies came about, to fill a niche market.
Scarred
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 11:21 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Out of my own curiosity,, why are there not more complaints about missing engines or underhood inaccuracies? I'm sure I like an engine and engine build more than the next guy but it's such a bummer looking at kits with the whole assembly missing or a kit with a rectangle chunk with an intake that's supposed to pass as an engine. Are engines something that are/were dreaded to deal with during war or are they completely uninteresting to military builders?


There are as many different engines as there are variants of a particular model of afv. Export models could have a different engine than domestic models. Countries that licensed to produce their own variants could have different engines than those made in the originating country. The Sherman tank had as many different engines as there were variants. Detailing a 1/35 engine is more difficult than detailing a 1/24 or 1/25 engine in a car model but it can be done. However most armor modellers I know are more about the guns than the horsepower since it is hidden behind armor. It's only been recently that armor models began to include any interior parts. In fact that is where afv modeling seems to be going. In the early days most tanks and afvs were inaccurate, low in detail and low in parts count. As time went by aftermarket parts and photoetch improved the accuracy and exterior details. Tracks went from vinyl bands to individual links to accurate metal aftermarket tracks. Model companies picked up on what modelers wanted and improved their products over time, improving accuracy, details and accessories so that it is possible to now build a much more accurate model than it was 40 years ago, without having to lay out a fortune for aftermarket parts. The outside seems to have evolved as far as it can go. Now it's time to start adding accurate interiors.

M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 05:04 PM UTC

Quoted Text

1/35 Panther Ausf.D V2 Versuchsserie
More info




I thought they got rid of the lower rounded turret mantle to delete the shot trap deflection into the top of the thin chassis steel? They replaced it with a lower block/ square edged mantle?



Hey, Guys!

Read this thread, first opened by DAVID, on August 16, 2016:

NEW DRAGON 15cm s.IG.33/2 (Sf) auf Jagdpanzer

In this thread, the discussion starts out with the new kit, and rapidly moves into what is going on in THIS thread, namely that the thread goes into ANOTHER discussion of BERGEPANTHERS, and by myself mentioning the desire for an all-new M3/M3A1 Stuart/Honey, M3 Lee/Grant, and an M8 HMC.

Now WAIT-

An explanation of WHY we don't see the kits that we so desperately want is offered up by the very experienced and knowledgeable Kurt Laughlin, on August 16, and 17. Kurt's explanation rings true, in my opinion, regarding the shenanigans that are transpiring between model manufacturers and a CARTEL, which CONTROLS the Model Manufacturing Industry.

Take note:

You guys that are so hot over seeing an "ALL-NEW" BERGEPANTHER, probably never will, and I will never see that "all-new" M3/M3A1 Stuart/Honey, M3 Lee/Grant, or M8 HMC...

I HATE to be so pessimistic, but after so many years of modellers' clamoring, pestering and outright pleading with the model manufacturers to produce the stuff that WE want, and not necessarily what THEY want to release, I think that we are ALL shouting upon DEAF EARS. Just think of all those kits that the "Model Gods" will throw at us, including DRAGON's "single, developmental Panther sub-types" that some of us in this thread couldn't be LESS INTERESTED in...

Think about it...
davejr
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Rhode Island, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 09:34 PM UTC
Well it seems to me that modern armor is very popular or trumpeter wouldn't be blasting out modern Russian kits and other manufacturers pumping out American and other nations along with IDF kits . I understand there are people out there that will buy every tiger and panther kit that gets released but almost every magazine from the eighties till now has an article on a tiger or a panther . How many times do need to read about building one lol . Thank god There are mags out there that deal with modern only . Again I'm really not trying to offend German armor guys but 30 yrs of tiger and panthers kits and articles was enough for me . P.s. The panther and drugs were my favorites when I started building armor lol
davejr
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Rhode Island, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 09:36 PM UTC
Stugs not drugs lol damn auto correct
kjoy
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North Dakota, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 09:53 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Companies respond to what sells. Don't buy the prototypes and odd variants and they will quit producing them. However your choice of model kits will also diminish.



True...but a bergpanther would sell a ton more than this thing. I have a feeling their going to drop a Bergpanther G in the near future. Before next summer. Just a gut feeling.




More people know what a panther is than a bergpanther. A bergpanther would appeal to a limited number of modelers who are into recovery or engineering vehicles while a panther would attract a wider spectrum of builders. I, personally, have no interest in building a bergpanther but would like to a accurate early and late panther without having to go bankrupt buying aftermarket parts to improve a bad kit. Guess I'll just keep waiting.



C'mon...if your building a panther, you know what a berg is. If you don't, it's because your new to WWII subject matter and it will just intrigue you. The vast majority of American youth don't know or care about the 2nd world war unfortunately.
Bravo1102
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New Jersey, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 09:55 PM UTC
You know it looks like for every three or four German prototypes Dragon does they sneak out an American prototype. We have seen the T28, M6 heavy tanks (despite their problems, I mean if you follow closely these German prototype kits have their little niggling inaccuracies too)

Maybe one of the combat cars? Serve all the M3 Stuart people to get a M1 Combat Car rather than a proper Stuart. Just the kind of left handed curve ball the Cartel might just throw our way.
Lokis_Tyro
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Wisconsin, United States
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Posted: Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Out of my own curiosity,, why are there not more complaints about missing engines or underhood inaccuracies? I'm sure I like an engine and engine build more than the next guy but it's such a bummer looking at kits with the whole assembly missing or a kit with a rectangle chunk with an intake that's supposed to pass as an engine. Are engines something that are/were dreaded to deal with during war or are they completely uninteresting to military builders?


There are as many different engines as there are variants of a particular model of afv. Export models could have a different engine than domestic models. Countries that licensed to produce their own variants could have different engines than those made in the originating country. The Sherman tank had as many different engines as there were variants. Detailing a 1/35 engine is more difficult than detailing a 1/24 or 1/25 engine in a car model but it can be done. However most armor modellers I know are more about the guns than the horsepower since it is hidden behind armor. It's only been recently that armor models began to include any interior parts. In fact that is where afv modeling seems to be going. In the early days most tanks and afvs were inaccurate, low in detail and low in parts count. As time went by aftermarket parts and photoetch improved the accuracy and exterior details. Tracks went from vinyl bands to individual links to accurate metal aftermarket tracks. Model companies picked up on what modelers wanted and improved their products over time, improving accuracy, details and accessories so that it is possible to now build a much more accurate model than it was 40 years ago, without having to lay out a fortune for aftermarket parts. The outside seems to have evolved as far as it can go. Now it's time to start adding accurate interiors.




Thanks for shedding some light on the subject. I hadn't thought of there being various engines fitted. With an engine change I can see how other necessary modifications would become muddled or lost completely in the modeling world creating more unwanted inaccuracies. I thought detailing would be half the fun but all the plumbing and wiring could become tedious even though some of us are gluttons for punishment in even smaller scales. In the little time I've had an interest in armor modeling there have been some great releases that have included very complete interiors and engine/transmissions. I do wish there is enough clamor and support for the trend to continue. I hope to see more cutaways and open hatches as well!

I am interested in any book recommendations on afv engines of all types and origin.

As far as these prototypes go I
think companies have a tough time pleasing an international community and the sure bet is to release something German no matter how obscure and to make use of the many German molds already available. The more the merrier imo. If they got one more prototype out of the way you're a little bit closer to that unicorn. Maybe a forum wish list section could work? Whatever you want as the thread title and whoever else would like that kit could leave a signature, nothing legally binding, but to confirm interest. Every so often you email companies a link to the thread showing them all the sales they're potentially missing.

Are there ever group buys on the kitmaker network?
pantherkid
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Posted: Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 01:03 AM UTC
So I take it that this is the Panther prototype? If so I'll take one, but I'll wait to see how the kit is and not like the other one where you have to cut up the hull to add this or that, what a mess of a kit.
Scarred
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Posted: Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 03:11 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Companies respond to what sells. Don't buy the prototypes and odd variants and they will quit producing them. However your choice of model kits will also diminish.



True...but a bergpanther would sell a ton more than this thing. I have a feeling their going to drop a Bergpanther G in the near future. Before next summer. Just a gut feeling.




More people know what a panther is than a bergpanther. A bergpanther would appeal to a limited number of modelers who are into recovery or engineering vehicles while a panther would attract a wider spectrum of builders. I, personally, have no interest in building a bergpanther but would like to a accurate early and late panther without having to go bankrupt buying aftermarket parts to improve a bad kit. Guess I'll just keep waiting.



C'mon...if your building a panther, you know what a berg is. If you don't, it's because your new to WWII subject matter and it will just intrigue you. The vast majority of American youth don't know or care about the 2nd world war unfortunately.



That's a pretty strong statement. I built my first model, a sherman when I was little, can't remember when but I was around 5. I knew what a sherman was, I knew what a tiger was, along with various WWII aircraft. My 10 year old nephew wants to build a tiger because he saw Fury. Guess what? He has no idea what a freaking bergpanzer is. He looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language when I told him about the history of the tiger shown in the movie. I had no idea what a bergpather was until I got into high school after 10+ years of building armor, cars and planes, and our library had some great books on WWII vehicles. There wasn't the plethora of info available back then and a lot of people today won't use what's available now. A lot of modellers get started by choosing to build because they saw it in a movie, t.v. show or video game. Or they saw something in a shop that peaked their interest. They aren't interested in the history behind the vehicle or maybe they aren't enamored with the war and won't build a rivet accurate model and that's ok. There are more modellers like that out there than those whose passion is detail. And if my nephew wants to build something he saw in a movie but doesn't know the whole history of the tiger or it's variants guess what? His dad and I'll get him the kit and supplies and let him do it. If he becomes an expert in WWII armor or not that's up to him.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 12:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You know it looks like for every three or four German prototypes Dragon does they sneak out an American prototype. We have seen the T28, M6 heavy tanks (despite their problems, I mean if you follow closely these German prototype kits have their little niggling inaccuracies too)

Maybe one of the combat cars? Serve all the M3 Stuart people to get a M1 Combat Car rather than a proper Stuart. Just the kind of left handed curve ball the Cartel might just throw our way.



Hi, Steve!

Actually...

I wouldn't mind having ALL of the T-series early precursors to the M3/M3A1 Stuarts, AND also The M2 Mediums- IRONCLAD/COMMANDER SERIES MODELS makes several of these in resin, and a single version of the M2 Medium- The only beef there is that their instructions are hand-drawn, and can be pretty darned vague in certain assembly steps.

As far as their T-series Combat Cars are concerned, the 2 or 3 COMMANDER kits definitely need to have their Tracks, Sprockets, Bogies and Road Wheels replaced with the AFV CLUB M5A1 Suspension parts; the Rear Idler is so-so, and could probably stand to be replaced with a couple of re-worked M4 Spoked Rear Idlers, instead.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for ANY US "inter-war" vehicles, or any "all-new" US WWII kits, either! I'll convert, kit-bash or scratch-build my own!!!
 _GOTOTOP