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Early war German boot color
americanpanzer
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 05:54 AM UTC
Working on Master Box figures "Cold Wind, German Infantry 1941-1942;" box art shows black boots on all but painting guide on back shows a couple with brown boots; any thoughts? Is either color accurate or is black more accurate? Thanks
Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 06:13 AM UTC
Black boots only for these figures.
Cheers,
Joe
Cheers,
Joe
Bravo1102
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 07:14 AM UTC
Boot black wears off very quickly in cold and wet weather. So a black pair of boots for all intents and purposes would appear brown. If you look at pictures of existing items as used, they are often very worn and very brown. That is the reality of use seen when handling the real thing.
I only have to look in the closet at my favorite pair of issue boots.
I only have to look in the closet at my favorite pair of issue boots.
Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 12:12 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Boot black wears off very quickly in cold and wet weather. So a black pair of boots for all intents and purposes would appear brown. If you look at pictures of existing items as used, they are often very worn and very brown. That is the reality of use seen when handling the real thing.
I only have to look in the closet at my favorite pair of issue boots.
US Marines carry polish and a boot brush in their packs. Well, they used to. I've been out a while, see.
I've always wondered if the boot polish of days-gone-by was the same stuff as the world-famous Kiwi Brand. Anybody know?
Bravo1102
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 12:34 PM UTC
Boot black is a charcoal derivative. It's been around as long as man has had fire.
Shining boots was just not a priority on the Eastern Front in 1941. Also the boot black wears off in snow within hours. Soldiers could brush it on in the morning and it would be all worn off by lunchtime. And then the Russians are shooting at you and you stepped in a mud puddles from melting snow, hold on, got to get the wax out to shine the boots...
Look at Bill Maudlin 's filth covered Willy and Joe. No brush touched their boots and the polish got thrown out to make way for another can of food or a carton of smokes.
The short boots issued after 1942 often were brown and never blackened for just those practical reasons.
Shining boots was just not a priority on the Eastern Front in 1941. Also the boot black wears off in snow within hours. Soldiers could brush it on in the morning and it would be all worn off by lunchtime. And then the Russians are shooting at you and you stepped in a mud puddles from melting snow, hold on, got to get the wax out to shine the boots...
Look at Bill Maudlin 's filth covered Willy and Joe. No brush touched their boots and the polish got thrown out to make way for another can of food or a carton of smokes.
The short boots issued after 1942 often were brown and never blackened for just those practical reasons.
Frenchy
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 01:35 PM UTC
I guess dusty black boots would look brown in summer as well
"German soldiers move into Russia. July 1941" :
"German soldiers move into Russia. July 1941" :
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 01:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Boot black is a charcoal derivative. It's been around as long as man has had fire.
Shining boots was just not a priority on the Eastern Front in 1941. Also the boot black wears off in snow within hours. Soldiers could brush it on in the morning and it would be all worn off by lunchtime. And then the Russians are shooting at you and you stepped in a mud puddles from melting snow, hold on, got to get the wax out to shine the boots...
Look at Bill Maudlin 's filth covered Willy and Joe. No brush touched their boots and the polish got thrown out to make way for another can of food or a carton of smokes.
The short boots issued after 1942 often were brown and never blackened for just those practical reasons.
Just a few side notes:
Patton DETESTED "Willie & Joe", because Bill Mauldin, the artist & writer of the comic strip, chose to depict GIs as they often appeared in the field during WWII- Patton's reasoning was that GIs shouldn't have been depicted as "Goddamned BUMS!!!"- Patton's words, not mine...
Steve- The "1942" boots that you're referring to were the M1943 Combat Shoes- There were issued in Brown and Tan Leather. They didn't actually reach the GIs until mid-late 1944 in many cases. The M1943 Combat Shoes were made in two styles; "Smooth side out", with "smooth" Brown leather on the outside surfaces, and "Flesh side out", which featured a rough texture on the outside. GIs often treated the M1943 Combat Shoes, (both styles), with Neat's Foot Oil, ostensibly to make them water-resistant, but not water-proof.
Regular Brown WWII US Army Service Shoes, (worn with the M1938 Leggings) were also treated with Neat's Foot Oil, in addition to the Brown KIWI Boot Polish that was regularly issued to US Army Personnel...
US Army and US Marines were not issued Black footwear until well past WWII...
Biggles2
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 06:51 PM UTC
Maybe Bravo 1102 was referring to the ankle boots issued to Germans from 1943? Of course, Jack Boots continued to be worn till the end of the war.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 07:19 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Boot black wears off very quickly in cold and wet weather. So a black pair of boots for all intents and purposes would appear brown. If you look at pictures of existing items as used, they are often very worn and very brown. That is the reality of use seen when handling the real thing.
I only have to look in the closet at my favorite pair of issue boots.
I would not assume that materials and manufacturing practices, especially involving textiles, are the same today as they were 75 years ago. There are a multitude of tanning processes and several types of leather. Unless the combination used was the same it won't look or wear the same.
My first thought upon reading this thread was the same as H-P's . . .
KL
leviman
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 08:08 PM UTC
German army boots were issued in the natural leather colour. The individual soldier was tasked with blackening his boots himself. I have many pieces of original German leather equipment items. Anything that looks black in photographs is actually a very dark brown/black where the original colour shows through. I would imagine that out in the field, the blackening would fade with wear?
americanpanzer
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Posted: Friday, September 09, 2016 - 08:37 PM UTC
Thank you everyone for the feedback; I checked color pictures from the era and many show early war boots as black but some show fading and/or discoloring; I wanted to be sure I could be accurate if a couple of the figures had boots that weren't quite black or were worn enough to appear brown; thanks again; got a good thread going
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 06:26 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Maybe Bravo 1102 was referring to the ankle boots issued to Germans from 1943? Of course, Jack Boots continued to be worn till the end of the war.
Hi, Biggs!
You're probably right! In any case, Gary mentioned something about the Black Kiwi(?) Boot Polish issued to Marines, so I just thought I'd add to what Steve was saying by putting in my 2 cents as far as American WWII Combat Shoes and Service Shoes were concerned.
I neglected to mention the US Army's Corcoran Parachutists' Boots, which were tanned in their signature "Oxblood" color; these were discontinued in the early Autumn of 1944, when US Paratroopers were issued the M1943 Combat Shoes. American Paratroopers were very fond of the Corcoran Boots, as they felt that these boots were a distinctive trademark of their specialized craft. US Paratroopers that had been issued the Corcoran Boots held onto them in their personal kit, even after they had been issued the M1943s, precisely because these boots set the Paras apart from the "Doggies". The US Paratroopers' "Esprit de Corps" dictated that they were Elite Troops which, when you come right down to it, they were, just like your very own "Red Devils" were, and still are. My youngest nephew served with the 82nd Airborne when they made the first jump into Afghanistan...
He is now training Special Forces Troops, and we are all very proud of him.
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 06:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Thank you everyone for the feedback; I checked color pictures from the era and many show early war boots as black but some show fading and/or discoloring; I wanted to be sure I could be accurate if a couple of the figures had boots that weren't quite black or were worn enough to appear brown; thanks again; got a good thread going
My two cents:
If one soldier turned up with dirty/worn/faded boots when all the others had nice shiny black boots he would probably be asked/ordered to polish them. When the whole group has been through war and dust they all have worn boots.
I think it would look odd with just a few soldiers with worn boots, unless they obviously belong to different groups/units (the replacement troops getting off a truck while the old worn out warriors look at the newcomers could be one scenario or a spit-and-polish officer looking at tired infantry marching past)
/ Robin
jrutman
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Posted: Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 06:36 PM UTC
Having worn black colored boots for my entire service career I think I have a little reliability in my opinion. Heheheh.
The leather is actually dyed and the polish just protects that dye. I can't imagine the German tanning process was much different than ours was in the 70s. I wore jump boots,issue boots of three different kinds and also jungle boots (mostly) while in the 82nd. After the wax in the polish wears off,then the dye is affected and as it wears,the leather color shows through more and more,but only in the areas affected by friction. So the toe area and the back lower part of the heel will get brown first,etc and also the high areas of the creases on the sides of the boot. The overall boot does not wear the same,get it? That pic of the dusty boots is just that,boots in one color,uniformly covered in dust. I have found the best way to paint worn boots is to cover the whole boot in dark grey,then give it a wash of black for the low areas. This is followed by dry brushing Valajo flesh color in the worn areas.Any earth tone weathering is then applied. You can get more complicated but that is the basic method.
Hope this coffee fueled comment was not too boring.
J
The leather is actually dyed and the polish just protects that dye. I can't imagine the German tanning process was much different than ours was in the 70s. I wore jump boots,issue boots of three different kinds and also jungle boots (mostly) while in the 82nd. After the wax in the polish wears off,then the dye is affected and as it wears,the leather color shows through more and more,but only in the areas affected by friction. So the toe area and the back lower part of the heel will get brown first,etc and also the high areas of the creases on the sides of the boot. The overall boot does not wear the same,get it? That pic of the dusty boots is just that,boots in one color,uniformly covered in dust. I have found the best way to paint worn boots is to cover the whole boot in dark grey,then give it a wash of black for the low areas. This is followed by dry brushing Valajo flesh color in the worn areas.Any earth tone weathering is then applied. You can get more complicated but that is the basic method.
Hope this coffee fueled comment was not too boring.
J
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 07:15 PM UTC
That's a very simple and realistic way of weathering leather. Never thought of using flesh for highlighting - even though undyed leather is just thick flesh colored skin!
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 07:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Having worn black colored boots for my entire service career I think I have a little reliability in my opinion. Heheheh.
The leather is actually dyed and the polish just protects that dye. I can't imagine the German tanning process was much different than ours was in the 70s. I wore jump boots,issue boots of three different kinds and also jungle boots (mostly) while in the 82nd. After the wax in the polish wears off,then the dye is affected and as it wears,the leather color shows through more and more,but only in the areas affected by friction. So the toe area and the back lower part of the heel will get brown first,etc and also the high areas of the creases on the sides of the boot. The overall boot does not wear the same,get it? That pic of the dusty boots is just that,boots in one color,uniformly covered in dust. I have found the best way to paint worn boots is to cover the whole boot in dark grey,then give it a wash of black for the low areas. This is followed by dry brushing Valajo flesh color in the worn areas.Any earth tone weathering is then applied. You can get more complicated but that is the basic method.
Hope this coffee fueled comment was not too boring.
J
Hi, Jerry!
Speaking for myself, I don't think that your contributions are boring at all!
If I may add something to your last post- in the field, dust, dirt and mud usually accumulate in the creases of boots and shoes, and tend to stay there until said boots and shoes are cleaned; sometimes, the dust, dirt and mud get a bit worn off of the "high points" of the creases, letting a tiny bit of the color of the boots or shoes show through, but CERTAINLY NOT as much as if said boots or shoes were in a "clean" state...
What I like to do with the boots and shoes of Soldiers or Marines is:
First, I paint the boots/shoes their basic Brown or Black color. Then, depending on the "field conditions" in my prospected figure's scenario, I like to run a thinned dust/dirt/mud "pin-wash" into the various creases of my boots/shoes. I then VERY lightly "dry-brush" a thicker mix of the dust/dirt/mud color onto the boots/shoes overall, taking great care in not over-doing that step, and then I will "adjust" the "high points" of the of the surfaces to my liking. I always refer to color photos in order to mimic the look of the real thing. I will then AIRBRUSH a thinned "filter" over the boots/shoes, leggings or puttees, the lower extremities of my figures, in order to gradually blend the color of the ground-work with the figure itself. This is done up to about half-way to three-quarters of the way up the legs. Finally, the whole figure is given a coat of TESTORS 1960 Clear Flat Lacquer in the spray can. This last step goes a long way in further blending the colors involved, making for a very natural appearance.
I learned A LOT about figure-painting by reading and poring over the color photos in the EXCELLENT reference book, "Bill Horan's MILITARY MODELLING MASTERCLASS", published by Windrow & Greene. The published articles and pamphlets created by the late, GREAT Shepard Paine was also INSTRUMENTAL in the honing of my skills as a modeller, in general. To these two Gentlemen, I owe a great deal of gratitude for the thousands of hours that I've put into one of my favorite hobbies...
I've learned a few things from the experienced modellers on this site as well, so to everyone concerned, a big
THANK YOU!!!