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M60 Blazer
Armorsmith
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Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 - 10:24 PM UTC
What's the low down on the Italeri M60 Blazer. The good, the bad and the ugly. Not wanting to have to invest in a ton of AM but will probably bite the bullet and get replacement tracks. Are there any other Blazers out there?

Thanks.
marcb
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Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 - 10:56 PM UTC
Academy makes at least one.
Armorsmith
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Posted: Friday, September 30, 2016 - 11:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Academy makes at least one.



Was not aware of the Academy offering. So, now my question applies to both the Italeri and Academy kits. Thanks.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 02:59 AM UTC
Italeri's M60 Blazer is a rebox of the Esci M60 Blazer, which was the best on the market until AFV Club offered theirs. It is a very good kit.

Academy's M60s are updated copies of Tamiya's M60s. They updated some of the more glaring issues of Tamiya's, but still inferior to Esci's versions.

You can see how the older M60 kits (Tamiya, Academy, and Esci) compare here.
Armorsmith
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 04:19 AM UTC
Gino - you seem to imply that AFV club also has an M60 Blazer kit but I could not find it anywhere. Do you have any idea on availability or is it OOP? Or were you simply referring to their M60 kit?
HeavyArty
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 04:25 AM UTC
I meant AFV Club's basic M60A1. Esci had a line of M60s which included an M60A1, M60A3, and the IDF M60 Blazer (which is an M60A1 with the Blazer armor parts added). The Esci M60s were the best M60 series until AFV Club's new ones (M60A1, M60A2, and M60A3) were introduced over the last year or so.
Armorsmith
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 06:50 AM UTC
Thanks for the clarification.
Sabot
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 10:00 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What's the low down on the Italeri M60 Blazer. The good, the bad and the ugly. Not wanting to have to invest in a ton of AM but will probably bite the bullet and get replacement tracks. Are there any other Blazers out there?

Thanks.



The Italeri M60 Blazer is the old Esci/AMT/Ertl M60 Blazer, but Italeri removed certain parts that allowed the modeler to make a regular M60A1. Originally, the kit included the basic M60A1 kit and added a sprue with the IDF specific pieces like the ERA armor, shrouded gun tube, Urdan cupola, etc.

Italeri removed the standard M60 cupola, plain gun tube and a few other detail parts.

I'd go with the recommendation of the AFV Club M60A1 and find someone who either built a Blazer kit as a standard tank and has the IDF parts left over or maybe look for one of the old Verlinden blazer armor sets. Probably get the leftover sprues for the price of postage.

But if you can get the Italeri kit cheap, go for it. In the mid 90s I found an odd lots store that sold the AMT boxing of the kit for $4.99. Personally, I like the Academy blazer armor better than the Esci armor, but the Esci kit is nicer than the Academy one.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 12:20 PM UTC
In case it matters the Academy and ESCI/Italeri M60 Blazer represent about three different variations of Israeli tanks.

The Academy has the choice of machine gun mounts with M1918 or FN MAG, and has the Merkava sprocket and track.

The ESCI has the US 30 caliber machine guns and standard hexagonal track. Both have the jacketed or plain main gun tube.

I have at least one set of ESCI Blazer parts in my spares.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 04:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I meant AFV Club's basic M60A1. Esci had a line of M60s which included an M60A1, M60A3, and the IDF M60 Blazer (which is an M60A1 with the Blazer armor parts added). The Esci M60s were the best M60 series until AFV Club's new ones (M60A1, M60A2, and M60A3) were introduced over the last year or so.



Hi, Gino!

Educate me- Which of the AFV CLUB M60 kits would form a better basis to build/convert/update a "Blazer"? Didn't our Marines have them, in ODS too?
Cantstopbuyingkits
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 05:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I meant AFV Club's basic M60A1. Esci had a line of M60s which included an M60A1, M60A3, and the IDF M60 Blazer (which is an M60A1 with the Blazer armor parts added). The Esci M60s were the best M60 series until AFV Club's new ones (M60A1, M60A2, and M60A3) were introduced over the last year or so.



Hi, Gino!

Educate me- Which of the AFV CLUB M60 kits would form a better basis to build/convert/update a "Blazer"? Didn't our Marines have them, in ODS too?



He just said that the Blazers were converted from M60A1s, so AFV Club's A1 kit would be the obvious starting point.
Armorsmith
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 06:18 PM UTC
Thank you all for your replies. It sounds as if the "best" option would be to get the AFV M60A1 and pick up the blazer parts from the Italeri kit. Second option would be to just get the Italeri kit.

Bravo1102 - hang on to those blazer parts as you may be hearing from me.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 06:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I meant AFV Club's basic M60A1. Esci had a line of M60s which included an M60A1, M60A3, and the IDF M60 Blazer (which is an M60A1 with the Blazer armor parts added). The Esci M60s were the best M60 series until AFV Club's new ones (M60A1, M60A2, and M60A3) were introduced over the last year or so.



Hi, Gino!

Educate me- Which of the AFV CLUB M60 kits would form a better basis to build/convert/update a "Blazer"? Didn't our Marines have them, in ODS too?



He just said that the Blazers were converted from M60A1s, so AFV Club's A1 kit would be the obvious starting point.



Hi, Tim!

I asked Gino TWO questions, not just the one about the AFV CLUB M60A1 & -A3 kits.

Though it may SEEM to you to be the "obvious" choice to go with the AFV CLUB M60A1, might not the -A3 kit supply a few detail parts that are present on a "Blazer" that aren't included in the -A1 kit? It's POSSIBLE, isn't it? I WILL NOT build a "Blazer" until I know exactly what I will need in the way of parts before I do so...

My second question was in regards to the US Marines using the -A1 "Blazer" in "Operation Desert Storm"- DID they, or DIDN'T they? I just don't remember, and I was wondering if Gino knew the answer to that question for sure. Gino hasn't steered me wrong yet, so that's why I asked. That doesn't mean that NO ONE ELSE could answer these questions for me, because I'm sure that there are a lot of other guys on this site that can...

As I understand it, from several different reviews that I've read, the AFV CLUB M60A1 kit is a representation of a "mid-production"-vehicle. I would like to know specifically which features, besides the "obvious" Armor Plates, differentiate the M60A1 from the M60A1 "Blazer". Were "Blazers" converted from "early", "mid", or "late"-type M60A1s, or were they converted from a "hodge-podge" of all three, if there even were such things as "early", "mid", or "late" -A1s..?

Furthermore, I DID read Gino's post regarding the AFV CLUB M60s, which sparked my curiosity regarding the actual differences between the _A1 and -A3 kits. WHAT possible harm can there be in asking a simple question..?
HeavyArty
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 06:58 PM UTC
The AFV Club M60A1 would be the best choice to start from. The IDF actually had quite a few different versions of Blazer configurations. So it depends on which one you want to build. Also, throughout their long use, different features were present on them. As with most vehicles that had many different types, the best bet is to find a pic of one you like and copy it.

IDF Megach 6 w/blazer armor.


The USMC used M60A1s in ODS with a similar ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor) as the IDF Blazer armor, but is is not the same. The tiles were different and stood off the hull. Academy and Tamiya both offer M60A1s w/ERA. I suspect AFV Club will come out w/one eventually too.

USMC M60A1 w/ERA
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 07:32 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The AFV Club M60A1 would be the best choice to start from. The IDF actually had quite a few different versions of Blazer configurations. So it depends on which one you want to build. Also, throughout their long use, different features were present on them. As with most vehicles that had many different types, the best bet is to find a pic of one you like and copy it.

IDF Megach 6 w/blazer armor.


The USMC used M60A1s in ODS with a similar ERA (Explosive Reactive Armor) as the IDF Blazer armor, but is is not the same. The tiles were different and stood off the hull. Academy and Tamiya both offer M60A1s w/ERA. I suspect AFV Club will come out w/one eventually too.

USMC M60A1 w/ERA



THANK YOU, GINO!!!

Those are PRECISELY the kinds of answers that I was looking for!!!

BTW, I was aware that the IDF "Blazer" Armor was different from ours, and I was just using the "Blazer" name to simplify things, rather than spelling out "Reactive Armor" several times, though I COULD have used "ERA"- Just me being "lazy", AND forgetting all about the "ERA" nomenclature, altogether!

Thanks anyway for the "heads-up" regarding the physical differences between the two ERA systems!

Third question:

Were any USMC M60A1s deployed in ODS seen with "NATO Tri-color" camo showing through the over-painted "Desert Sand" camo, as some of our M1s and other vehicles displayed in OIF..? Please bear with me- I'm not quite as knowledgeable with "modern" US Armor as I am with our WWII stuff...

I was also wondering if some of the external details of the M60A1s with ERA might have been brought up to -A3 standards, IF such differences actually existed between the two types, i.e Mufflers, Tool Boxes, Sensors, Lamps, Stowage placement, etc..?
exgrunt
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 08:19 PM UTC

Quoted Text



Were any USMC M60A1s deployed in ODS seen with "NATO Tri-color" camo showing through the over-painted "Desert Sand" camo, as some of our M1s and other vehicles displayed in OIF..? Please bear with me- I'm not quite as knowledgeable with "modern" US Armor as I am with our WWII stuff...

I was also wondering if some of the external details of the M60A1s with ERA might have been brought up to -A3 standards, IF such differences actually existed between the two types, i.e Mufflers, Tool Boxes, Sensors, Lamps, Stowage placement, etc..?



Pretty sure all Marine M60's in ODS had a pretty thorough painting of sand. Haven't seen any pictures of heavily weathered USMC tanks. Outside of ODS, you can see a good number of tanks in 3-color NATO, with overall green armor blocks.

Also pretty sure that all USMC ODS M60's were standard A1 RISE/PASSIVE tanks, no upgrades aside from the ERA.
Northern_Lad
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 08:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thank you all for your replies. It sounds as if the "best" option would be to get the AFV M60A1 and pick up the blazer parts from the Italeri kit. Second option would be to just get the Italeri kit.

Bravo1102 - hang on to those blazer parts as you may be hearing from me.



I have the Italeri Blazer parts if you want them. I made a Slick 60 using the Italeri hull and a modified Tamiya M48 turret a couple of years ago. The blazer parts are just sitting around in a box somewhere.
Cheers
Matthew
HeavyArty
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 08:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



Were any USMC M60A1s deployed in ODS seen with "NATO Tri-color" camo showing through the over-painted "Desert Sand" camo, as some of our M1s and other vehicles displayed in OIF..? Please bear with me- I'm not quite as knowledgeable with "modern" US Armor as I am with our WWII stuff...

I was also wondering if some of the external details of the M60A1s with ERA might have been brought up to -A3 standards, IF such differences actually existed between the two types, i.e Mufflers, Tool Boxes, Sensors, Lamps, Stowage placement, etc..?



Pretty sure all Marine M60's in ODS had a pretty thorough painting of sand. Haven't seen any pictures of heavily weathered USMC tanks. Outside of ODS, you can see a good number of tanks in 3-color NATO, with overall green armor blocks.

Also pretty sure that all USMC ODS M60's were standard A1 RISE/PASSIVE tanks, no upgrades aside from the ERA.



I concur with John, they stayed pretty well covered in sand. Also, the were M60A1 RISE/Passive tanks.



The USMC did have a Bn minus worth of M60A3 TTS tanks handed down from the US Army that they spread across their units in ODS to give them better/more night fighting capabilities. Noe of these had ERA though.
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 08:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text



Were any USMC M60A1s deployed in ODS seen with "NATO Tri-color" camo showing through the over-painted "Desert Sand" camo, as some of our M1s and other vehicles displayed in OIF..? Please bear with me- I'm not quite as knowledgeable with "modern" US Armor as I am with our WWII stuff...

I was also wondering if some of the external details of the M60A1s with ERA might have been brought up to -A3 standards, IF such differences actually existed between the two types, i.e Mufflers, Tool Boxes, Sensors, Lamps, Stowage placement, etc..?



Pretty sure all Marine M60's in ODS had a pretty thorough painting of sand. Haven't seen any pictures of heavily weathered USMC tanks. Outside of ODS, you can see a good number of tanks in 3-color NATO, with overall green armor blocks.

Also pretty sure that all USMC ODS M60's were standard A1 RISE/PASSIVE tanks, no upgrades aside from the ERA.



I concur with John, they stayed pretty well covered in sand. Also, the were M60A1 RISE/Passive tanks.



The USMC did have a Bn minus worth of M60A3 TTS tanks handed down from the US Army that they spread across their units in ODS to give them better/more night fighting capabilities. Noe of these had ERA though.



A BIG "THANKS" to all who took the time to answer my questions!

I'll be putting ALL of this great info to good use! I may even resort to building a more-or-less "generic M60A1", an M60A1 RISE/Passive, AND an M60A3 TTS!!!
Sabot
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 09:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text


As I understand it, from several different reviews that I've read, the AFV CLUB M60A1 kit is a representation of a "mid-production"-vehicle. I would like to know specifically which features, besides the "obvious" Armor Plates, differentiate the M60A1 from the M60A1 "Blazer". Were "Blazers" converted from "early", "mid", or "late"-type M60A1s, or were they converted from a "hodge-podge" of all three, if there even were such things as "early", "mid", or "late" -A1s..?




The AFV Club, and most M60A1 models (less the original Tamiya M60A1) are mid or late production tank kits. The identifying feature between mid and early A1s is the presence of "chin armor" on the front edges below the mantlet. I think the old Tamiya kit is the only one without the chin armor. See the photo below and you can see additional armor weld beginning at the bottom edge of the turret by the canvas cover and it continues until it reaches the turret ring. It was added to eliminate a trap shot discovered during Israel's use of the tank in combat.

What differentiates the mid from the late is normally the tracks, road wheels and air cleaners. The original style tracks, aluminum "finned" road wheels (strengthening ribs along the inner portion of the road wheels) and original side loading air cleaners are considered early to mid features.

Late features on an M60 series tank are later style tracks with replaceable track pads (sort of football shaped), top loading armored air cleaners, and smooth steel road wheels that were the ones from the M48/M88 series. The road wheels are not a hard and fast identifying item since road wheels are replaced when they are worn out. My M60A3TTS tank in 1989 had a mix of aluminum and steel road wheels, and it was among the last of the active duty M60A3 tanks in the Army.

Photos of USMC M60A1 RISE/Passive tanks in Desert Storm are examples of late features of A1s.

exgrunt
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 09:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text


The USMC did have a Bn minus worth of M60A3 TTS tanks handed down from the US Army that they spread across their units in ODS to give them better/more night fighting capabilities. Noe of these had ERA though.


Whilst on the subject of A3's, I could have sworn I remember reading that a US Army unit or two had ERA applied to their A3's for a very short time before they transitioned to M1's.

Anyone know if this was the case or was ERA solely used by the Corp?

Sabot
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 09:38 PM UTC
In Germany, we were issued the manuals to install ERA to our A3s, but went to M1A1s instead (1989). I think 2ID in Korea was supposed to add it as well because the ERA manuals had an adjustment to accommodate the loader's machine gun present on their A3s.
Armorsmith
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 09:48 PM UTC
Matthew-Thanks for the kind offer but I'm afraid that shipping from across the pond might be cost prohibitive for me.
Sabot
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 09:53 PM UTC
I have Esci blazer armor sprues that aren't needed.
Garrand
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Posted: Saturday, October 01, 2016 - 11:07 PM UTC
Let me go against the trend here and elaborate...

Up until the AFV Club M60 series, the Esci M60s were indeed the best on the market, superior to the old Tamiya/Academy kits.

That being said, the Esci M60 Blazer is a bit of a mixed bag. You get the good Esci base kit, with so-so parts for the blazer. Before the AFV Club kits came out, the BEST M60 Blazer model would IMHO be a kitbash of the Esci base kit, and the Academy Blazer parts. The Academy Blazer parts were quite a bit superior, especially around the MG mounts and MGs themselves.

Nowadays, I wouldn't bother with the Esci kit unless you get it cheap. If you want to kitbash a superior M60 Blazer, get the AFV Club kit and use the Academy parts to convert. I wouldn't waste an AFV Club M60 with Esci parts...

Damon.
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