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looking for T-34 expert help!
steve-o
Ohio, United States
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Posted: Monday, October 24, 2016 - 11:16 PM UTC
Help!
I'm wondering what kind of T-34/76 Mariya Oktyabrskaya drove. I know anything associated with a propaganda campaign can get... tricky.
I've included 2 pictures that I think are of the same tank. Can anyone help with what specific type of T-34 this is, and additionally is there a good model kit to represent it? I need some help balancing out all of the German armor on the shelf.
Thanks!
Steve
jasegreene
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 12:14 AM UTC
it looks like a 1942 model to me possibly.those two hatches on the turret even gave it the nickname "mickey mouse".there is a old tamiya version but i think that dragon has a much better version also.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 12:37 AM UTC
It's a hex turret (usually known as Model 1942, though some dub it Model 1943). It's fairly late, maybe spring 1943, as it has rubber tires on all wheels (rubber was conserved in 1942, and a mix of steel rims and rubber was more common). It has the solid pattern wheels, so it's probably from Factory 174 (it doesn't have the Features associated with factory 112, and Factory 183 usually used the perforated, cast wheels).
Dragon and AFV Club offer reasonable kits of these variants, though you may have to rummage around to find a kit with all the features you want. ICM/Revell Germany do this variant, too, but it's cruder. Miniart is starting to do very nice T-34-based kitsd with interiors, but they are concentrating on self-propelled guns, for now.
I wouldn't bother with the ancient Tamiya or Zvezda versions.
Dragon and AFV Club offer reasonable kits of these variants, though you may have to rummage around to find a kit with all the features you want. ICM/Revell Germany do this variant, too, but it's cruder. Miniart is starting to do very nice T-34-based kitsd with interiors, but they are concentrating on self-propelled guns, for now.
I wouldn't bother with the ancient Tamiya or Zvezda versions.
Frenchy
Rhone, France
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 01:57 AM UTC
Here's another view you may not have already :
According to the caption, this tank is nicknamed "Fighting Girlfriend" and the picture has been taken in 1943...
Left side view :
H.P.
According to the caption, this tank is nicknamed "Fighting Girlfriend" and the picture has been taken in 1943...
Left side view :
H.P.
duttons
Australia
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 02:04 AM UTC
Great slogan
military Girlfriend Boevaya podruga if my dodgy Russian is correct
military Girlfriend Boevaya podruga if my dodgy Russian is correct
Zaaphod
Slovakia
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 03:02 AM UTC
Perhaps this is what you are looking for. Search for T-34/76, mod 1943, early, cast turret. Mickey Mouse, as it was called.
C_JACQUEMONT
Loire-Atlantique, France
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 03:34 AM UTC
Are there 1/35 decals for this tank?
Cheers,
Christophe
Cheers,
Christophe
DmitryMarkov
Moscow, Russia
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 02:59 PM UTC
Don't know about a decal, but once there was a set of masks by HobbyPlus SU35024
DmitryMarkov
Moscow, Russia
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 03:22 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Great slogan
military Girlfriend Boevaya podruga if my dodgy Russian is correct
Literally "Battle Girlfriend", but the sense closer to "Sister in Arms". 'Cause in our language word "girlfriend" is associated more with friendship than with girl-boy (or girl-girl ;-) ) relationship especially it was so 70+ years ago, before modern culture made the "-friend" words obtain their dualism ))
M4A1Sherman
New York, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 04:06 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextGreat slogan
military Girlfriend Boevaya podruga if my dodgy Russian is correct
Literally "Battle Girlfriend", but the sense closer to "Sister in Arms". 'Cause in our language word "girlfriend" is associated more with friendship than with girl-boy (or girl-girl ;-) ) relationship especially it was so 70+ years ago, before modern culture made the "-friend" words obtain their dualism ))
Hello to ALL!!!
DMITRY IS RIGHT, of course!
BTW, in Ukrainian, the "girlfriend" word is translated into "Kohanka", (accent on the second syllable), literally, "Dear One", and is sometimes also used euphemistically for the word "Mistress"...
I'm just pointing out that certain words, contractions, and phrases in the Slavic Languages sometimes do not LITERALLY translate into English, and can sometimes create some confusion for people who are not familiar with these languages...
I also agree with Josip! I personally would use the AFV CLUB AF35S57 T-34/76 "1943" Zavod No.183, ("Zavod" = "Factory", or "Manufacturing Plant"), as it most closely provides the "best" starting point for this particular vehicle. The AFV kit is also a GREAT kit, in and of itself!
A question for Dmitry:
Wouldn't the extra White markings and White trim, such as the White striping on the Road Wheels & Fenders, the all-White Hub Caps and the extra "Names" on this vehicle be consistent with a "Parade Vehicle"?
duttons
Australia
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 05:11 PM UTC
Thanks Dimitri, that makes great sense, sister in arms, that is the problem with very literal translations, it doesn't add the nuances off cultural differences, periods of time etc.
Hope it didn't offend, just thought that was unusual slogan.
Out of interest, is there a more elegant translation for bmp or bmd, we only see literal, combat machine infantry, combat machine descent (parachute) etc?
Cheers
Hope it didn't offend, just thought that was unusual slogan.
Out of interest, is there a more elegant translation for bmp or bmd, we only see literal, combat machine infantry, combat machine descent (parachute) etc?
Cheers
smorko
Serbia & Montenegro
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 05:27 PM UTC
If i remember correctly her husband was killed by the germans, she sold all her belongings and bought and paid for the tank to avenge him. She insisted on commanding it. Great PR of course, but in context fighting girlfriend makes more sense.
DmitryMarkov
Moscow, Russia
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 05:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
A question for Dmitry:
Wouldn't the extra White markings and White trim, such as the White striping on the Road Wheels & Fenders, the all-White Hub Caps and the extra "Names" on this vehicle be consistent with a "Parade Vehicle"?
Well, yes and no:
You must take into account some considerations
- actually, the tank on the first photo in post #1 and photos in post #4 is not Maria Oktyabrskaya's machine. It is the tank bought by women from Sverdlovsk bread/pasta factory. And is pictured in moment of delivering to the tank crew of Leut. Baida. Of course this is a very important moment for everybody involved - I believe Army and NKV understood that those women would want to see something fashionable built for their money (earned very hard during wartime). I don't think that the machine went into battle with white bandages, but who knows.
By the way, this tank has burned in autumn of 1943, the crew survived. Those women from Sverdlovsk again bought a tank, again named it Boevaya Podruga, again presented it to Lt. Baida's crew. Second tank went through all left-bank Ukraine, but unfortunately was hit in Carpatian Mountains on 30th July 1944 and Lt. Baida has fallen.
DmitryMarkov
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 06:12 PM UTC
Quoted Text
If i remember correctly her husband was killed by the germans, she sold all her belongings and bought and paid for the tank to avenge him. She insisted on commanding it. Great PR of course, but in context fighting girlfriend makes more sense.
Yes, You are right. Dualism again. We call that dialectics. I'll stay by my opinion - 70 years ago "-friend" words meant more individuality-to-indviduality kind of relationships, rather than boy-girl one. But that does not exclude the modern meaning of literal Russo-English translation completely )
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 06:37 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
A question for Dmitry:
Wouldn't the extra White markings and White trim, such as the White striping on the Road Wheels & Fenders, the all-White Hub Caps and the extra "Names" on this vehicle be consistent with a "Parade Vehicle"?
Well, yes and no:
You must take into account some considerations
- actually, the tank on the first photo in post #1 and photos in post #4 is not Maria Oktyabrskaya's machine. It is the tank bought by women from Sverdlovsk bread/pasta factory. And is pictured in moment of delivering to the tank crew of Leut. Baida. Of course this is a very important moment for everybody involved - I believe Army and NKV understood that those women would want to see something fashionable built for their money (earned very hard during wartime). I don't think that the machine went into battle with white bandages, but who knows.
By the way, this tank has burned in autumn of 1943, the crew survived. Those women from Sverdlovsk again bought a tank, again named it Boevaya Podruga, again presented it to Lt. Baida's crew. Second tank went through all left-bank Ukraine, but unfortunately was hit in Carpatian Mountains on 30th July 1944 and Lt. Baida has fallen.
THANK YOU, Dmitry!
steve-o
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 09:22 PM UTC
Thanks everyone! This is really interesting. Linguistically, and mechanically.
Now, all the answers have brought up more questions. Are these 2 different vehicles? Are there multiple pictures of Mariya's T-34 somewhere? And was it a Factory 174, or 183? Does that matter?
- Steve
Now, all the answers have brought up more questions. Are these 2 different vehicles? Are there multiple pictures of Mariya's T-34 somewhere? And was it a Factory 174, or 183? Does that matter?
- Steve
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 10:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks everyone! This is really interesting. Linguistically, and mechanically.
Now, all the answers have brought up more questions. Are these 2 different vehicles? Are there multiple pictures of Mariya's T-34 somewhere? And was it a Factory 174, or 183? Does that matter?
- Steve
The tailplate will tell you which factory built it, but it isn't visible in the photos shown. Factory 183 tanks had the upper tailplate fit inside the lower tailplate, with two small hinges. Factory 174 had the upper tailplate overlap the lower tailplate, with two small hinges, and Factory 112 had the same arrangement, but with two wide hinges. Factory 112 also used interlocking front armor plate for a while, and had two handrails welded to the glacis plate on the top left and right sides, and angle irons welded to the upper edges of the glacis and side plates to protect the turret ring. And as mentioned, Factory 183 usually used the perforated wheels.
MCR
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Posted: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 - 10:55 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThanks everyone! This is really interesting. Linguistically, and mechanically.
Now, all the answers have brought up more questions. Are these 2 different vehicles? Are there multiple pictures of Mariya's T-34 somewhere? And was it a Factory 174, or 183? Does that matter?
- Steve
The tailplate will tell you which factory built it, but it isn't visible in the photos shown. Factory 183 tanks had the upper tailplate fit inside the lower tailplate, with two small hinges. Factory 174 had the upper tailplate overlap the lower tailplate, with two small hinges, and Factory 112 had the same arrangement, but with two wide hinges. Factory 112 also used interlocking front armor plate for a while, and had two handrails welded to the glacis plate on the top left and right sides, and angle irons welded to the upper edges of the glacis and side plates to protect the turret ring. And as mentioned, Factory 183 usually used the perforated wheels.
Not entirely correct, Gerald. Factory 183/174/ChKZ/UZTM had rear plates that were nearly identical in construction. Only Factory 112 had the upper plate overlapping the lower.
Early on in the production of the "Model '42" Factory 183/UTZ had three small hinges on the rear plate and two fewer bolts holding it in place. Later in production they would change to two hinges and add the two bolts back in.
UZTM (who produced T-34 for only a short time before switching to producing self propelled guns) shared UTZ's arrangement of the rear plate.
Okay, not to repeat everyone here but this particular T-34-76 is generally what is referred to as a “Model ‘42”.
Gerald gets you most of the way there in terms of which factory produced it and the full set of pressed dish wheels is probably the biggest clue. Only two of the factories seem never to have adopted the “internally dampened” tireless wheels; Krasnoye Sormovo a.k.a Factory 112, and UZTM. This is not a Factory 112 made T-34.
Another small clue that this is “probably” a UZTM made tank is the type of hand rails on the hull and engine deck. The pattern is said to be more or less unique to that factory (Other makers used the same type of hand rail just not in the same configuration on the hull, turret, and engine deck). Factory 174 and 112 tended to prefer using bent rod hand rails, at least on the hull.
Unfortunately there is no kit that will give you this exact variation of the T-34 out of the box though your best bet is Dragon’s kit #6424, “T-34/76 Hexagonal Turret Soft Edge Type”. You’ll need the pressed type wheels which can be had from a couple of after market sources or taken from DML kits #6479 or 6614.
The AFV Club kit is a poor choice to represent this one primarily because it has the wrong variation of the turret but also, and I apologize if I’m stepping on anyone’s toes here, because other than having a full interior, it’s just not a particularly accurate representation of the T-34.
Good luck with your project and hope this helps~
Mark
C_JACQUEMONT
Loire-Atlantique, France
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Posted: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 - 06:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Don't know about a decal, but once there was a set of masks by HobbyPlus SU35024
Thank you Dmitry!
Cheers,
Christophe
Jacques
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Posted: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 - 08:32 AM UTC
Excellent explanation Mark. I appreciate it.
DmitryMarkov
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Posted: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 - 11:33 AM UTC
I agree with Mark totally on this item - Dragon kit would suit better for the tank from photos!
And there's another "small clue" why it couldn't be other than UZTM-made machine - simply logistics: the meeting on the photo takes place in Sverdlovsk (Yekaterinburg) - and UZTM is also situated in Sverdlovsk (Yekaterinburg) :-)
Why in the world someone would bring a tank to a tank-producing city from the other place during wartime? Just look at the map
The machine was produced, moved to a bread factory for a solemn meeting, transfered to a crew, made a mandatory 50-km march, and sent to the Front by railroad.
Or it could be this way - the tank was produced, transfered to the crew at the UZTM, moved for a solemn meeting to a bread factory where the ritual of transfer was shown to the women who payed for the tank, and after that - mandatory march and then loading into an echelone.
And there's another "small clue" why it couldn't be other than UZTM-made machine - simply logistics: the meeting on the photo takes place in Sverdlovsk (Yekaterinburg) - and UZTM is also situated in Sverdlovsk (Yekaterinburg) :-)
Why in the world someone would bring a tank to a tank-producing city from the other place during wartime? Just look at the map
The machine was produced, moved to a bread factory for a solemn meeting, transfered to a crew, made a mandatory 50-km march, and sent to the Front by railroad.
Or it could be this way - the tank was produced, transfered to the crew at the UZTM, moved for a solemn meeting to a bread factory where the ritual of transfer was shown to the women who payed for the tank, and after that - mandatory march and then loading into an echelone.
steve-o
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Posted: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 - 08:33 PM UTC
Great points, and I love the logic.
Dmitry, thanks for pointing out that those are 2 different tanks! (I think I missed the first time you pointed that out).
Does anyone know if there are there other picture's of Mariya Oktyabrskaya's T-34? I assume that anything that could be used for propaganda would have been photographed quite a bit (like the T-34 at the bread factory).
Interesting that both tanks would have the same slogan. I wonder if it was a common phrase, or if one inspired the other.
- Steve
Dmitry, thanks for pointing out that those are 2 different tanks! (I think I missed the first time you pointed that out).
Does anyone know if there are there other picture's of Mariya Oktyabrskaya's T-34? I assume that anything that could be used for propaganda would have been photographed quite a bit (like the T-34 at the bread factory).
Interesting that both tanks would have the same slogan. I wonder if it was a common phrase, or if one inspired the other.
- Steve
DmitryMarkov
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Posted: Sunday, October 30, 2016 - 04:02 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Great points, and I love the logic.
Dmitry, thanks for pointing out that those are 2 different tanks! (I think I missed the first time you pointed that out).
Does anyone know if there are there other picture's of Mariya Oktyabrskaya's T-34? I assume that anything that could be used for propaganda would have been photographed quite a bit (like the T-34 at the bread factory).
Interesting that both tanks would have the same slogan. I wonder if it was a common phrase, or if one inspired the other.
- Steve
It was a popular slogan for a tank, but I can't tell if it became popular after Maria Vasilyevna's machine or not.
Unfortunately, the only pictures I could find are the likes of second pic from post#1 - a tank in process of making camo.
There is another pic - a portrait with a tank on the background but I think it's a collage.
As for photographing things for propaganda - some things were photographed, some were not. Perhaps, some pics are lying somwhere in Archives and are still not published on the net.