Does anybody know what all the drama with MENG and DEF models is about?
I was on FB earlier looking at MENGs post about their zimm decal sheet. The post seems like they are defending themselves about the zimm being used from DEF and a ton of people are on there bashing them about "stealing" it from DEF.
Am I reading all of this right? Does anybody have the cliff notes about any of this?
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Drama with MENG?
Thirian24
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,493 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 08:15 AM UTC
DaGreatQueeg
Joined: August 01, 2005
KitMaker: 1,049 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 08:43 AM UTC
There was quite a stouch going on with a lot of info on the DEF page, some of which appears to have been removed.
Basically (and really a simplified version) Meng contracted DEF to supply production samples of their decal zimm (artwork as well I suspect) under the guise of working together to produce the sheets for their new KT. Then "out of the blue" Meng roll out their version, which when overlaid is basically a direct copy. Meng claim there's vast differences (but which basically amount to a couple of line strokes) and all work shown is their own but it is a bit too much of a co-incidence. They're the same, not much doubt. Mengs final statement I think was that commercially it was better to go with their own designs rather than a more "expensive" third party option, read don't wanna cut our margin by paying royalties.
As to the rights and wrongs, been involved in a contracted, signed deal with a pretty big games company and had a rule set 'liberated". Contracts are worthless unless you have the money to fight on equal terms. Anyone attempting to do business with a bigger company and where IP and designs are involved should expect this result 90% of the time.
All interesting but won't effect what gets purchased in any way ....
cheers
Brent
Basically (and really a simplified version) Meng contracted DEF to supply production samples of their decal zimm (artwork as well I suspect) under the guise of working together to produce the sheets for their new KT. Then "out of the blue" Meng roll out their version, which when overlaid is basically a direct copy. Meng claim there's vast differences (but which basically amount to a couple of line strokes) and all work shown is their own but it is a bit too much of a co-incidence. They're the same, not much doubt. Mengs final statement I think was that commercially it was better to go with their own designs rather than a more "expensive" third party option, read don't wanna cut our margin by paying royalties.
As to the rights and wrongs, been involved in a contracted, signed deal with a pretty big games company and had a rule set 'liberated". Contracts are worthless unless you have the money to fight on equal terms. Anyone attempting to do business with a bigger company and where IP and designs are involved should expect this result 90% of the time.
All interesting but won't effect what gets purchased in any way ....
cheers
Brent
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 10:47 AM UTC
If I am correct Meng is from China and they have a lax view of what piracy means. If it was your stuff copied, it is not piracy but if it was their stuff it is piracy. I haven't seen any waterslide zimm. How good is DEF's waterslide zimm? I know the other products I have gotten from them has been first rate.
sam_dwyer
Joined: November 03, 2008
KitMaker: 294 posts
Armorama: 291 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 10:49 AM UTC
Or, what actually happened.
Meng sent out RFQ's to numerous suppliers, DEF being one of them, to provide water slide zimmerit decals for their new king tiger. Meng supplied their own artwork. These suppliers were paid for their effort.
Meng were not happy with any of the work provided, so sourced their own. This comes from people outside Meng who know exactly what happened.
Now, as can happen, the burning torch and pitchfork crowd on Facebook judged Meng to be guilty and ranted and raved about never buying a Meng kit again. Regardless of being told these facts.
There endeth the lesson.
Sam
Meng sent out RFQ's to numerous suppliers, DEF being one of them, to provide water slide zimmerit decals for their new king tiger. Meng supplied their own artwork. These suppliers were paid for their effort.
Meng were not happy with any of the work provided, so sourced their own. This comes from people outside Meng who know exactly what happened.
Now, as can happen, the burning torch and pitchfork crowd on Facebook judged Meng to be guilty and ranted and raved about never buying a Meng kit again. Regardless of being told these facts.
There endeth the lesson.
Sam
DaGreatQueeg
Joined: August 01, 2005
KitMaker: 1,049 posts
Armorama: 841 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 11:13 AM UTC
Not sure what you mean about lesson? There's always two sides, Mengs "facts" or DEFs "facts". Unless you've seen all the paperwork and can show proof to people you're in the dark as to what actually went down just as anyone else is. Public statements from either party don't make them facts, no matter how big (or small) the company is. As I said it isn't going to effect sales in any way and I suspect many claiming to never buy Meng again are full of wind.
However if Mengs art was noticeably different it would have helped "unmuddy" the waters as it would too if they'd just produced there own set off their own bat, but it isn't and they didn't. There are zero scruples in business and no real way to settle this kind of thing either to either sides satisfaction. Maybe DEFs work was poor, maybe they wanted too much for the rights or a partnership, we'll never really know.
Don't really agree with the claim that one off payments for commercial samples totally makes the outcome ok though. Samples can easily be reverse engineered by a decent design department once you had something to work off and can go "so that's how that's done". Even calling for samples in itself is a great defence for use later, "but we called for submissions but they just weren't good enough". Been down this path in the packaging business and if you want to stay out of the limelight then you have to make double effort to stay squeaky clean. When you don't this sort of thing can easily happen.
Brent
However if Mengs art was noticeably different it would have helped "unmuddy" the waters as it would too if they'd just produced there own set off their own bat, but it isn't and they didn't. There are zero scruples in business and no real way to settle this kind of thing either to either sides satisfaction. Maybe DEFs work was poor, maybe they wanted too much for the rights or a partnership, we'll never really know.
Don't really agree with the claim that one off payments for commercial samples totally makes the outcome ok though. Samples can easily be reverse engineered by a decent design department once you had something to work off and can go "so that's how that's done". Even calling for samples in itself is a great defence for use later, "but we called for submissions but they just weren't good enough". Been down this path in the packaging business and if you want to stay out of the limelight then you have to make double effort to stay squeaky clean. When you don't this sort of thing can easily happen.
Brent
sam_dwyer
Joined: November 03, 2008
KitMaker: 294 posts
Armorama: 291 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 02:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Not sure what you mean about lesson?
Hehe sorry just a quote from a movie, didn't mean i was schooling anyone.
Yes, two sides to every story, someone feels aggrieved, so goes online to beef about it, everyone piles on and it gets silly.
Mengs' artwork was provided in their reply, along with the artwork supplied in return from the other participants in the request for quote. Their artwork was substantially different in the zimmerit template (the outline of each panel) and different in pattern than the DEF stuff, yet people still believe that Meng acted in a shady manner.
Not going to stop me buying a load of their King Tigers
Sam
DaGreatQueeg
Joined: August 01, 2005
KitMaker: 1,049 posts
Armorama: 841 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 02:27 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextNot sure what you mean about lesson?
Hehe sorry just a quote from a movie, didn't mean i was schooling anyone.
Yes, two sides to every story, someone feels aggrieved, so goes online to beef about it, everyone piles on and it gets silly.
Mengs' artwork was provided in their reply, along with the artwork supplied in return from the other participants in the request for quote. Their artwork was substantially different in the zimmerit template (the outline of each panel) and different in pattern than the DEF stuff, yet people still believe that Meng acted in a shady manner.
Not going to stop me buying a load of their King Tigers
Sam
:) No worries - all good. I did have a real close look originally at the art when the fuss stirred up to see what it all was about. TBH if anything went down it was probably more about the tech and how to side of things, any final product was always going to have to have a shape unique to the Meng moldings. They just didn't help themselves with their timing and process but then I doubt they have to be as sensitive and careful as a western producer would.
As an aside I'd be interested to know if anyone had the IP for zimm decals, seems unique enough to warrant it. Either way the product looks ok and it will be interesting to see how the builds using it turn out.
cheers
Brent
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 03:07 PM UTC
Quoted Text
As an aside I'd be interested to know if anyone had the IP for zimm decals, seems unique enough to warrant it. Either way the product looks ok and it will be interesting to see how the builds using it turn out.
cheers
Brent
And if someone had the IP-rights ? After a while it all boils down to who has the most "muscle" to defend, or muscle someone else out of, their IP-rights ...
/ Robin
sam_dwyer
Joined: November 03, 2008
KitMaker: 294 posts
Armorama: 291 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 03:15 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextNot sure what you mean about lesson?
Hehe sorry just a quote from a movie, didn't mean i was schooling anyone.
Yes, two sides to every story, someone feels aggrieved, so goes online to beef about it, everyone piles on and it gets silly.
Mengs' artwork was provided in their reply, along with the artwork supplied in return from the other participants in the request for quote. Their artwork was substantially different in the zimmerit template (the outline of each panel) and different in pattern than the DEF stuff, yet people still believe that Meng acted in a shady manner.
Not going to stop me buying a load of their King Tigers
Sam
:) No worries - all good. I did have a real close look originally at the art when the fuss stirred up to see what it all was about. TBH if anything went down it was probably more about the tech and how to side of things, any final product was always going to have to have a shape unique to the Meng moldings. They just didn't help themselves with their timing and process but then I doubt they have to be as sensitive and careful as a western producer would.
As an aside I'd be interested to know if anyone had the IP for zimm decals, seems unique enough to warrant it. Either way the product looks ok and it will be interesting to see how the builds using it turn out.
cheers
Brent
Does everyone who builds a chair owe royalties to the first guy who built a chair?
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 04:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Does everyone who builds a chair owe royalties to the first guy who built a chair?
The first person who built a chair didn't register the IP-rights quickly enough and by now it is far too late
/ Roin
jimz66
Joined: December 15, 2006
KitMaker: 1,165 posts
Armorama: 1,105 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 05:04 PM UTC
NOT COOL MENG NOT COOL at all.
SEDimmick
Joined: March 15, 2002
KitMaker: 1,745 posts
Armorama: 1,483 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 05:46 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextNot sure what you mean about lesson?
Hehe sorry just a quote from a movie, didn't mean i was schooling anyone.
Yes, two sides to every story, someone feels aggrieved, so goes online to beef about it, everyone piles on and it gets silly.
Mengs' artwork was provided in their reply, along with the artwork supplied in return from the other participants in the request for quote. Their artwork was substantially different in the zimmerit template (the outline of each panel) and different in pattern than the DEF stuff, yet people still believe that Meng acted in a shady manner.
Not going to stop me buying a load of their King Tigers
Sam
Seems like this whole event brought out the SJW's in full effect...perhaps the most annoying thing was a well known modeller on Facebook "dumped" his Meng kits (which from what I can tell was given to him gratis) on sale to other modellers.
Removed by original poster on 12/19/16 - 13:20:27 (GMT).
Thirian24
Joined: September 30, 2015
KitMaker: 2,493 posts
Armorama: 2,344 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 06:34 PM UTC
Thanks for the explanation fellas.
Scott, I seen that too. I didn't know that's how he got all those kits. I thought it was kinda funny that he had 3-4 of the same kit.
Scott, I seen that too. I didn't know that's how he got all those kits. I thought it was kinda funny that he had 3-4 of the same kit.
easyco69
Joined: November 03, 2012
KitMaker: 2,275 posts
Armorama: 2,233 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 08:25 PM UTC
China is known to steal & copy. It's fact. As to this case...don't know.
Look at the recent case of recent events..China "steals" deep water drone from US research vessel. Then promises to give it back..but..just after enough time to take it apart & investigate it. They did the same with US missile technology...but in that case Clinton gave them an opportunity.
I came across a company from China selling "copied" Alpine Miniature 1/35 figures on ebay...I contacted Alpine immediately.
Anyway...have a great holiday.
Look at the recent case of recent events..China "steals" deep water drone from US research vessel. Then promises to give it back..but..just after enough time to take it apart & investigate it. They did the same with US missile technology...but in that case Clinton gave them an opportunity.
I came across a company from China selling "copied" Alpine Miniature 1/35 figures on ebay...I contacted Alpine immediately.
Anyway...have a great holiday.
Chilihead
Joined: July 03, 2002
KitMaker: 626 posts
Armorama: 456 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 10:00 PM UTC
Scott
First of all, you have your facts a bit screwed up.
I was a freelance researcher for MENG and recieved kits in payment for my work, I also sent out many of free kits from my personal stash and supplied them as raffles and door prizes.
So it's my choice to sell or dump Meng kits at my choosing.
Thanks and have a better day!
Chris Mrosko
First of all, you have your facts a bit screwed up.
I was a freelance researcher for MENG and recieved kits in payment for my work, I also sent out many of free kits from my personal stash and supplied them as raffles and door prizes.
So it's my choice to sell or dump Meng kits at my choosing.
Thanks and have a better day!
Chris Mrosko
joepanzer
Joined: January 21, 2004
KitMaker: 803 posts
Armorama: 740 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 18, 2016 - 11:47 PM UTC
Wow, that went from "well known modeler" to full disclosure pretty quickly.
DaGreatQueeg
Joined: August 01, 2005
KitMaker: 1,049 posts
Armorama: 841 posts
Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 12:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Does everyone who builds a chair owe royalties to the first guy who built a chair?
Clearly not in common sense land, but we don't live in the 50's anymore. Even fair use stuff is getting locked up for use these days, try using the word "SKY" in the description of your product or company in the UK. Apparently it's owned ....
My point which I'm sure was understood, was that if and I mean "if" DEF (or anyone else)registered their design or process then the issue would have been much worse and clear cut.
It's obvious that they didn't or this would have been over before it started. As it sits now it's just a supplier who's pissed off because they didn't get selected and thinks their work was plagiarised and a producer who's just trucking on doing their own thing .......
Brent
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 02:04 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted Text
Does everyone who builds a chair owe royalties to the first guy who built a chair?
Clearly not in common sense land, but we don't live in the 50's anymore. Even fair use stuff is getting locked up for use these days, try using the word "SKY" in the description of your product or company in the UK. Apparently it's owned ....
...
Brent
Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxaOItEmu3U
SEDimmick
Joined: March 15, 2002
KitMaker: 1,745 posts
Armorama: 1,483 posts
Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 02:49 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Scott
First of all, you have your facts a bit screwed up.
I was a freelance researcher for MENG and recieved kits in payment for my work, I also sent out many of free kits from my personal stash and supplied them as raffles and door prizes.
So how about calling me out on your little Facebook group that I was part of then was blocked from? I answered your little post over then you decided to block me...
DaGreatQueeg
Joined: August 01, 2005
KitMaker: 1,049 posts
Armorama: 841 posts
Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 04:42 AM UTC
wedgetail53
Joined: October 02, 2008
KitMaker: 658 posts
Armorama: 629 posts
Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 06:11 AM UTC
Boys, boys, boys . . .
I cannot believe how quickly this blew up from a simple question to what is rapidly becoming a verbal slugfest. Trust me, very few, if any readers of this page CARE about who has been blocked from where.
I think Sam answered the question quite well with about the fourth post.
Peace on earth (and modelling websites) - everybody have a merry, safe Christmas and a happy New Year.
Regards
Rob
I cannot believe how quickly this blew up from a simple question to what is rapidly becoming a verbal slugfest. Trust me, very few, if any readers of this page CARE about who has been blocked from where.
I think Sam answered the question quite well with about the fourth post.
Peace on earth (and modelling websites) - everybody have a merry, safe Christmas and a happy New Year.
Regards
Rob
jwest21
Joined: October 16, 2006
KitMaker: 3,374 posts
Armorama: 3,126 posts
Posted: Monday, December 19, 2016 - 06:32 AM UTC
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