Hello all,
Would anyone happen to know whether the panzer I ausf A tracks had clear and distinct cast numbers?
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Panzer I ausf A track question
KruppCake
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 401 posts
Armorama: 387 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 04:52 AM UTC
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 08:49 AM UTC
While none would be visible on a 1/35 scale link, there actually were some casting numbers - on at least SOME Pz IA/B track links!
The numbers were molded in inside of the link horn outer faces! But these would be mighty tiny on a 1/35 scale link. You would need both a very well-done link molding AND a magnifier to see this!
There are some nice pics of these to be seen on http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/pzi.htm
Cheers!
Bob
The numbers were molded in inside of the link horn outer faces! But these would be mighty tiny on a 1/35 scale link. You would need both a very well-done link molding AND a magnifier to see this!
There are some nice pics of these to be seen on http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/pzi.htm
Cheers!
Bob
KruppCake
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 401 posts
Armorama: 387 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 03:49 PM UTC
Quoted Text
While none would be visible on a 1/35 scale link, there actually were some casting numbers - on at least SOME Pz IA/B track links!
The numbers were molded in inside of the link horn outer faces! But these would be mighty tiny on a 1/35 scale link. You would need both a very well-done link molding AND a magnifier to see this!
There are some nice pics of these to be seen on http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/pzi.htm
Cheers!
Bob
Thanks for the link, Bob! The reason I ask is because I managed to get my hands on an actual Panzer I track link, but the cast numbers are very indistinguishable, as if the casting was very rough and imprecise. I'm trying to determine if it's possible that someone recast the link as a forgery.
Namabiiru
Associate Editor
#399
Joined: March 05, 2014
KitMaker: 2,888 posts
Armorama: 1,920 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 04:30 PM UTC
Looking at Toadman's photos, it's interesting to note how much variability there is in the guide horns on different links. It looks like there are actually two different styles (flat-tipped and point-tipped), or is it simply that link production was dispersed among multiple manufacturers with a lot loose specs?
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 - 08:59 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextWhile none would be visible on a 1/35 scale link, there actually were some casting numbers - on at least SOME Pz IA/B track links!
The numbers were molded in inside of the link horn outer faces! But these would be mighty tiny on a 1/35 scale link. You would need both a very well-done link molding AND a magnifier to see this!
There are some nice pics of these to be seen on http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/pzi.htm
Cheers!
Bob
Thanks for the link, Bob! The reason I ask is because I managed to get my hands on an actual Panzer I track link, but the cast numbers are very indistinguishable, as if the casting was very rough and imprecise. I'm trying to determine if it's possible that someone recast the link as a forgery.
It could possibly depend on where/how that link has spent the last 72 years. In a warehouse wrapped in oiled paper or rusting away in the ground somewhere.
Is it rusty, does it look brand new or does it look as if someone has sandblasted away a lot of rust ?
I'm not saying (well, writing asa matter of fact) that it is not a forgery. It is hard to tell only from the visual appearance. I think a metallurgical analysis would be needed ...
Possible scenario: Someone digs up a few real links.
Someone realises that this rusty old thing is actually valuable. Someone, or someone else, comes up with the bright idea to cast copies of "rusty old thing".
Casting numbers, shape, rust pitting et.c. are all authentic, only the metal in all those copies is brand "new". Could even be scrap metal from ship sunk in 1917 for all we know
My sister has some old iron from a barge built 1905 lying around on her lawn. Casting a copy from that iron would mean that the metal is old enough but presumably not the correct alloy for a Pz I track link.
/ Robin
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Friday, June 09, 2017 - 08:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextWhile none would be visible on a 1/35 scale link, there actually were some casting numbers - on at least SOME Pz IA/B track links!
The numbers were molded in inside of the link horn outer faces! But these would be mighty tiny on a 1/35 scale link. You would need both a very well-done link molding AND a magnifier to see this!
There are some nice pics of these to be seen on http://www.toadmanstankpictures.com/pzi.htm
Cheers!
Bob
Thanks for the link, Bob! The reason I ask is because I managed to get my hands on an actual Panzer I track link, but the cast numbers are very indistinguishable, as if the casting was very rough and imprecise. I'm trying to determine if it's possible that someone recast the link as a forgery.
It could possibly depend on where/how that link has spent the last 72 years. In a warehouse wrapped in oiled paper or rusting away in the ground somewhere.
Is it rusty, does it look brand new or does it look as if someone has sandblasted away a lot of rust ?
I'm not saying (well, writing asa matter of fact) that it is not a forgery. It is hard to tell only from the visual appearance. I think a metallurgical analysis would be needed ...
Possible scenario: Someone digs up a few real links.
Someone realises that this rusty old thing is actually valuable. Someone, or someone else, comes up with the bright idea to cast copies of "rusty old thing".
Casting numbers, shape, rust pitting et.c. are all authentic, only the metal in all those copies is brand "new". Could even be scrap metal from ship sunk in 1917 for all we know
My sister has some old iron from a barge built 1905 lying around on her lawn. Casting a copy from that iron would mean that the metal is old enough but presumably not the correct alloy for a Pz I track link.
/ Robin
All of what you say is, of course, possible, Robin! And I would suppose, were old track links actually worth much, this might indeed happen. But whether one is trying to smelt and cast old ship iron or any other iron and create some new "old" track-links - even if one could find or recreate the correct alloy used - would be, to say the least, a LOT of work! Casting iron isn't a cottage or back-yard industry for the faint-hearted!
And yes, there probably were more than one link-caster working those Pz. I and other early track-link contracts. It was a small-foundry job, I'd expect. And the Nazis were evidently fairly good at spreading out military equipment and supply orders among many smaller companies, given their sourcing OVM and various other varied equipment from small local companies and small commercial suppliers. And yes, I think that there was variation in the link-horns - I've seen some apparent variation in several period pics of these tanks, so believe that there were at least a couple of patterns going. The exact link-horn shape may not be all that critical, whereas the alignment and size and spacing of the articulation points and the pin-holes would probably be.
Bob
KruppCake
Joined: July 13, 2015
KitMaker: 401 posts
Armorama: 387 posts
Posted: Friday, June 09, 2017 - 06:15 PM UTC
Thank you for the information, gentlemen! Bob, what you're saying makes sense. It would seem like too much work, they're not really expensive anyway. Here are some pics of what I have:
The last two pics show the blurry cast numbers. To those that have some experience, does the track look sand-blasted?
The last two pics show the blurry cast numbers. To those that have some experience, does the track look sand-blasted?
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Friday, June 09, 2017 - 07:19 PM UTC
The surface has definitely suffered a major rust attack and then the rust has been cleaned off.
Sandblasting (or other types of small grains like plastic, metall, glass, ceramics) removes paint, rust and anything else that is soft but leaves the metal intact.
Getting all the rust off using other methods, wire brushes, angle grinders, scouring with "sand", files, sandpaper et.c. would leave marks and in some cases a smoother surface.
Wire brushes could just maybe be possible but I would put my cents on some kinds of "sand" blasting. Getting all the rust away from all the concave surfaces and corners would require a significant amount of "elbow grease" ....
The amount of rust pitting would probably also affect the casting numbers and blurring them.
Looks kind of pretty after all, almost like a piece of modern art
It would look really nice placed on a piece of dark polished wood, maybe walnut. Just as long as it doesn't get dropped on a toe when dusting and cleaning ....
/ Robin
Sandblasting (or other types of small grains like plastic, metall, glass, ceramics) removes paint, rust and anything else that is soft but leaves the metal intact.
Getting all the rust off using other methods, wire brushes, angle grinders, scouring with "sand", files, sandpaper et.c. would leave marks and in some cases a smoother surface.
Wire brushes could just maybe be possible but I would put my cents on some kinds of "sand" blasting. Getting all the rust away from all the concave surfaces and corners would require a significant amount of "elbow grease" ....
The amount of rust pitting would probably also affect the casting numbers and blurring them.
Looks kind of pretty after all, almost like a piece of modern art
It would look really nice placed on a piece of dark polished wood, maybe walnut. Just as long as it doesn't get dropped on a toe when dusting and cleaning ....
/ Robin
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