Armor/AFV
For discussions on tanks, artillery, jeeps, etc.
How many are building OOTB?
cabasner
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 06:10 PM UTC

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For a certain period of time I was almost "obsessed" with AM parts. Up to a point where frustration about the "fiddly parts" became so great that a (costly) kit went airborne and I actually cleaned out the stockpile.

After a 2+ years pause from model building I am now mostly OOB with a very few, very select AM parts. PE is only bought after a lengthy comparison between the kit in hand and the building plans for the PE (No online plans/series of pictures => no buy) and then only if a) I consider 75+ percent of the parts useable and b) a massive enhancement (Say the Sgt. York PE set)

Even OOB I am a lot more selective these days. "Rubber Band" tracks are ok, Link&Length are acceptable, everything else is a "no buy" (Sadly, I would love to do a Chieftain Mk10) and I have been partially switching to cars for this reason.



I have to get where you are!
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 06:19 PM UTC
Slightly off topic for this thread (well, maybe at least ...)

A few years ago I decided to do a SITB (Still In the Box) build.
The rule was that everything except the instruction sheet had to be inside the box except the part/parts I was holding and working on. I used a Tamiya Leo 2 A5 or A6. It is still in the box since I can't add the fragile details before I can paint it and I have to replace the tank on my compressor first.

The painting also needs to follow the box rule (in the box or in the hand).

Maybe it is a way to prevent the loss or temporary mis-placement of parts (let the carpet monster starve).

/ Robin
KruppCake
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 06:27 PM UTC

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Again, as for the OOTB concerns, here's a link to one of my OOTB builds:

https://armorama.kitmaker.net//features/7343

How does it compare to other kits heavily supplemented with AM parts? The weathering on it is minimal (very slight dusting, mainly streaking).



Krupp - I'm really impressed with your OOTB build. Maybe you should be my motivation to get to the point where OOTB is fine. Your AFV looks great! I need to work on certain skills anyway, and painting is certain one of those, and you need to get to the end of a build at some point to try those painting and weathering skills. Ultimately, no matter who good the build is, without the finishing touches, it doesn't matter much, anyway.



Thank you, Curt! I agree, it's also an important learning experience taking the models through all the stages. The only way I got comfortable with weathering was to do it one tiny step at a time on each model. Currently, my biggest concern with regards to models and weathering is to not produce "cookie-cutter models." I try to not do the same weathering on each and every model I make, so if I make a damaged and rusted world war tank, the next model is likely to be a modern piece with very little weathering.
ColinEdm
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 06:38 PM UTC
It depends on the kits, most of my builds are pretty much OOB, sometimes I will do some a/m or scratchbuilding if there is some detail that is missing. If there is something special I want to do then I will occasionally go to town with a/m. I can justify the extra cost of the a/m by balancing it against the fact that I almost never buy brand new kits from the store - usually second hand at a significant discount. That said, a lot of kits available today simply do not need much, if anything in the way of a/m!C[ ]
davejr
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 07:55 PM UTC
The only am stuff that is a must for me is metal barrels ,screens ,resin tires and replacing tracks when necessary.most kits today have enough detail and I'm not a rivet counter and always felt that a good paint and weathering job on a kit is what makes the kit stand out cause after its painted you can't see all the shiny pe anymore .
69mudbone
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 08:32 PM UTC
This is a big bone, a lot to chew on, thanks.
thathaway3
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 10:55 PM UTC
My problem (and it is a problem and I KNOW it's a problem) is that I'm an engineer by profession and when I look at photos and compare them to what is IN the box, I cannot help but try to match the prototype as closely as possible.

I get a tremendous satisfaction being able to add details, and scratch build things like functional hatches, etc., even when doing so results in such long completion times for a kit that I'm constantly fighting the feeling of wanting to move on to something else.

I know that because I'm almost 67, and have a LOT of other interests besides modeling, that's only going to get worse as skills diminish and time starts to run out.

I still find it VERY hard to say, "that's good enough" when I know that I can do better and it's not easy to "settle" when my whole professional life as an automotive engineer was dedicated to ensuring designs were the BEST they could be.

So far I still get more satisfaction from solving some particular problem and adding something or improving something beyond what the original kit designer provided than in simply completing a kit.

At some point I know that is going to have to change, but it is a real struggle!
bulldawg380
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 11:09 PM UTC
I prefer OOB and realy don't care for PE and will opt for the plastic parts if they are not to bad. I also see the industry releasing more and more subjects. I used to want to build kits that were not readily available. I built a T-62AM with the legend AM kit a few years ago and though I posted it here, it went to print and I had fun building it. The fun was over when I took it to a show and made the mistake of walking past the judges as it was being judged. The rivet counters were absolutely destroying it. Afterwards I went home and did not build for a while as I thought it looked very nice. Since then I got over being critical of myself and strated just enjoying the hobby.
cabasner
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 11:23 PM UTC

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...always felt that a good paint and weathering job on a kit is what makes the kit stand out cause after its painted you can't see all the shiny pe anymore .



So true!!! I have seen a number of models on various forums where the maker used a huge amount of PE, to the point where a lot of posters would say that it would be a shame to actually paint it and cover up all that work! I would agree that once those kinds of builds are finished, the super detail may have been worth it, but certainly doesn't stand out in the way it dis when those shiny brass parts were obvious.

I also think that the true artistry in modeling is not the build, but the paint and weathering. Good building/construction can be a sort of art, but it's more akin to good engineering (I'm a Nuclear Engineer, by the way). The paint and the weathering, making a model look like the real thing, is always impressive to me. I still remember, when I was young, and I used to visit a local hobby store and look in their cases in awe at the amazing models that were there, and I know it was the paint and the other aspects of the post-build work that caught my eye.
cabasner
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 11:30 PM UTC

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The fun was over when I took it to a show and made the mistake of walking past the judges as it was being judged. The rivet counters were absolutely destroying it. Afterwards I went home and did not build for a while as I thought it looked very nice. Since then I got over being critical of myself and strated just enjoying the hobby.



I would absolutely hate that, and I know that if my work was judged to be substandard, I'd have a hard time getting over it. Good thing I'm not a person inclined to go to shows.
cabasner
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Posted: Sunday, September 03, 2017 - 11:37 PM UTC

Quoted Text

...I can justify the extra cost of the a/m by balancing it against the fact that I almost never buy brand new kits from the store - usually second hand at a significant discount. That said, a lot of kits available today simply do not need much, if anything in the way of a/m!C[ ]



I don't worry much about cost, (I am fortunate to not have to be that concerned with that), but I like the idea of doing builds OOTB for the most part, and only occasionally splurging for big aftermarket items for a model where those parts would really add to it and make a difference. It would make that model that much more special.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 12:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

My problem (and it is a problem and I KNOW it's a problem) is that I'm an engineer by profession and when I look at photos and compare them to what is IN the box, I cannot help but try to match the prototype as closely as possible.

I get a tremendous satisfaction being able to add details, and scratch build things like functional hatches, etc., even when doing so results in such long completion times for a kit that I'm constantly fighting the feeling of wanting to move on to something else.

I know that because I'm almost 67, and have a LOT of other interests besides modeling, that's only going to get worse as skills diminish and time starts to run out.

I still find it VERY hard to say, "that's good enough" when I know that I can do better and it's not easy to "settle" when my whole professional life as an automotive engineer was dedicated to ensuring designs were the BEST they could be.

So far I still get more satisfaction from solving some particular problem and adding something or improving something beyond what the original kit designer provided than in simply completing a kit.

At some point I know that is going to have to change, but it is a real struggle!



I'm actually quite with you, Tom! No, not an ex-automotive engineer - for me it is research science and study-design along with the OCD which comes from military experience, flying, work as a prototype machinist, and years of other detail-oriented stuff! And I can easily commiserate with you as to seeing the photo and falling into that photo versus in the box trap when building! Oh, and I'm a tad younger (63), and I too suffer the many-other-interests problem. OOTB is a fond dream of mine, though I cannot resist doing a few tweaks here and there on even the "best" kits. But hey, I strive mightily to beat back my old habits and compulsions and try my darndest to keep the tweaking at a dull roar! Actual OOTB is a sort of late-age sorta-holy-grail, to me! A brass ring which somehow keeps fully-visible just out of reach! But we obsessives may at least be partially-saved with the sometimes stunning stuff that does come in some boxes!
Tojo72
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 01:25 AM UTC
I build mostly OOB I will add stowage,figures,or vent screens if not provided.I like Dragon kits as they usually come with extras.I do find the smaller PE confounding like tool holders and padlocks and hasps,but will usse metal fenders,schurzen,and screens included in the kit.
davejr
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 01:25 AM UTC
Bulldog380 I'm with with you rivet counters have a way of bumming out the guy who just wants to enjoy the hobby .don't get me wrong some of those guys give us inspirational builds to look at but it's when they start nit picking a kit not so much the guy or gal that built it but the kit. it sometimes discourages a few from building because they think if they don't go out and spend 3 times what the kit cost on aftermarket stuff or spend 6 months researching and scratch building the build just won't be good when its done.i appreciate the rivet counter for pointing things out the manufacturer got wrong or left out then i can decide what i can live with but as long as when i buy a m1a1 and it looks like a m1a1 when it's done (if i don't screw it up ) I'm happy lol
Lakota
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 03:48 AM UTC
Howdy Y'all
For me, "it just depends." I don't like sanding the seams on gun barrels so metal ones come in handy. My rule for PE is, will stay glued on and does it significantly make an improvement? For example the spare track holders on Tamiya's Matilda are a good part for substituting PE. I'll use canopy masks and resin tires for planes. I work so slowly I'm going to do what I like and what works efficiently and effectively for me.
Now that you bring it up I'm finding I'm building more and more OOTB and enjoying the hobby more. I like the KitMaker Network as I learn from all of you. I don't worry about the rivet counters so I enjoy the shows. I got skunked at the last IPMS regional I went to but I had a blast, no regrets. My problem is too many unfinished shelf queens. I think I'll try concentrating on them in 2018. This weekend I worked on a P5M Marlin for the Flying Boats campaign and to give to my father as a gift. I'm not going to stress about the age of the kit and bad fit, raised rivets, etc. I'm building for fun and I build at the kitchen table. BTW I still had time to take my daughter fishing this weekend and do a little yard work.
Take care,
Don "Lakota"
billwinkes
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 04:44 AM UTC
I, too, build OOTB most of the time. AM is rather expensive and extends the build time. OK, honestly, I teach and have little time to build at all, except in the summer. After ending up with innumerable unfinished projects, it was time for a change. I still use AM for storage; or an occaisional barrel. I'll brag and say that I managed a 2nd place at a recentish IPMS nationals in the OOB category and, earlier, a silver at a AMPS national in OOB. Those were satisfying almost wins because it reflected modeling skills, not AM additions. Yes, reverse snobbery.
steviecee
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 05:27 AM UTC
I have neither the time, patience or vision to do anything other than OOB
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 06:14 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I built a T-62AM with the legend AM kit a few years ago and though I posted it here, it went to print and I had fun building it. The fun was over when I took it to a show and made the mistake of walking past the judges as it was being judged. The rivet counters were absolutely destroying it. Afterwards I went home and did not build for a while as I thought it looked very nice. Since then I got over being critical of myself and strated just enjoying the hobby.



OK, I have to ask: What did you expect the judges at a model show would do? You did choose to enter it into a contest, after all, and I've never been to a show where the criteria for getting an award was "does it look nice to the guy who built it?"

Anyone can build however they want, but if they are freely choosing to enter the model in a contest they shouldn't be surprised or upset that the judges will pick it apart.

My advice has long been that if you want to do things your way, your psyche will best be served by keeping your models well clear of contests where the judges decide if they were done their way.

KL
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 06:20 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Don't get me wrong some of those guys give us inspirational builds to look at but it's when they start nit picking a kit not so much the guy or gal that built it but the kit. It sometimes discourages a few from building because they think if they don't go out and spend 3 times what the kit cost on aftermarket stuff or spend 6 months researching and scratch building the build just won't be good when its done.



An important part of becoming an adult is deciding how you want to live your own life, despite what others may say or think. If you are a grown-up and can't do that with your hobbies, the problem is not with model kit nit-pickers.

KL
davejr
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 07:19 AM UTC
Ok kurt for one never said it stopped me but have seen many get discouraged.wasn't trying to imply rivet counters were a bad thing .i don't sweat the small stuff was just giving my 2 cents .don't need to be preached to by the likes of you about being an adult i do just fine.
Bravo1102
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 07:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text

My problem (and it is a problem and I KNOW it's a problem) is that I'm an engineer by profession and when I look at photos and compare them to what is IN the box, I cannot help but try to match the prototype as closely as possible.




As an artist I understand. But I heard a saying a long time ago that helped me put things back into perspective.
"A work of art is never finished, merely abandoned "

As for judging, I used to complain too until I did it. You have a table full of great models. They all look great but how do you get to a winner? You end up having to count rivets. Some contests allow the judges to grade a model by itself (figure shows and AMPS) so you don't count the rivets as much . But the extra work aftermarket brings helps towards getting a gold medal. But then so does doing a good job on a bear of a kit. Hense, my love of challenging builds. It may be out of the box but those parts fought me every step of the way.
KurtLaughlin
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 07:37 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Ok kurt for one never said it stopped me but have seen many get discouraged.wasn't trying to imply rivet counters were a bad thing .i don't sweat the small stuff was just giving my 2 cents .don't need to be preached to by the likes of you about being an adult i do just fine.



I was talking about the "sometimes discouraged few" you mentioned in your post. I did not think you were referring to yourself.

KL
Me109G
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 08:29 AM UTC
I have been building more and more OOTB. I used to add PE and other aftermarket on most of my kits, but it got to more like a job rather than a hobby! Plus, with the quality of the new injection molded offerings, OOTB is pretty darn good these days. Also, it allows me to complete more kits and I get to focus on painting and weathering instead of placing thousands of tiny PE pieces!!
davejr
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 08:39 AM UTC
I apologize kurt if i misread what you wrote .
cabasner
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Posted: Monday, September 04, 2017 - 08:54 AM UTC

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...Also, it allows me to complete more kits and I get to focus on painting and weathering instead of placing thousands of tiny PE pieces!!



A perfect reason to go OOTB!!