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Takom Kraz 260V w/ T-55AMV trailer question..
andymacrae
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Posted: Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 04:47 PM UTC
The gross towing weight of the truck is be limited to, roughly, 28 tons on road and 23 tons off-road. The 5247 trailer itself weighs 18 tons and a T-55 without the reactive armour weighs in at 36 tons. That's 54 tons, plus the weight of added armour, way over the limit for the Kraz260V? Or am I getting something wrong?
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 05:25 PM UTC
Don't know if the data on this page is correct but ...
http://en.valka.cz/topic/view/40694/SOV-KrAZ-260V-tahac-navesu
it says gross trailer weight 27500 kg (27.5 tons)
That would have to be a very light T-55 and a weightless semi-trailer ....
Gross combination weight is 48125 kg which leaves 20625 kg for the tractor (and 5th wheel loading). The curb weight of the tractor is 10900 kg, max payload is 9725.
Use something lighter as load.

There is probably quite a lot of margin in the maximaum payload but off-roading would probably be off-limit.
/ Robin
165thspc
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Posted: Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 06:02 PM UTC
Something is just not right with those figures or we are looking at them wrong. I have no doubt that the load capacity of that trailer is MORE than 10.5 tons!
165thspc
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Posted: Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 06:13 PM UTC
Note: Gross TOWING weight is the maximum towing (pulling) force exerted by the prime mover NOT the weight of the vehicle and load.

In the US they usually rate a truck by it's carrying capacity or maximum downward load on the fifth wheel. But not all countries rate their vehicles that way. Take German halftracks for instance; an Sd. Kfz. 7, 8 ton halftrack could exert a pulling force of eight tons, that does not mean the vehicle could carry 8 tons on it's back.

I do not yet have the answer but dawg gone it, that trailer can carry more than 10 tons!

p.s. Also to remember only approximately half the combined weight of the trailer plus load it sitting on the fifth wheel of the truck (prime mover.)
andymacrae
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Posted: Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 06:23 PM UTC
Should add that I'm aware the trailer itself can carry a T-55AMV easily, what I'm questioning is whether a Kraz260 can tow that sort of load as you usually see such loads being pulled by a Maz 537 or Maz535?
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Thursday, September 21, 2017 - 09:17 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Note: Gross TOWING weight is the maximum towing (pulling) force exerted by the prime mover NOT the weight of the vehicle and load.

In the US they usually rate a truck by it's carrying capacity or maximum downward load on the fifth wheel. But not all countries rate their vehicles that way. Take German halftracks for instance; an Sd. Kfz. 7, 8 ton halftrack could exert a pulling force of eight tons, that does not mean the vehicle could carry 8 tons on it's back.

I do not yet have the answer but dawg gone it, that trailer can carry more than 10 tons!

p.s. Also to remember only approximately half the combined weight of the trailer plus load it sitting on the fifth wheel of the truck (prime mover.)



That web-page I linked to claims that Gross Combination Weight is 48125 kg (sum of tractor + trailer + load + any snow or other irrelevant weight).
It doesn't matter what the trailer can carry if the tractor supporting the front end can't carry more than 9725 kg.
A really "strong" trailer could have a fifth wheel load when empty which is more than a "weak" tractor can carry.
The curb weight of the tractor is 10900, a payload of 9725 is reasonable compared to that curb weight.
The dump truck that delivered 11400 kg of sand to my summerhouse two years ago has a curb weight of somewhere around 14000 kg. If it had had a fifth wheel it would probably have had a payload of 15000 to 16000 kg and it still would not have been able to carry tanks.
/ Robin
LKWMAN
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Posted: Friday, September 22, 2017 - 12:35 AM UTC
The trailer has a payload of 50 tonnes, divided on two axles with four wheels, the tractor has at least two axles with a load capacity of 11 tonnes, called the Sattellast 22Tonnen. 36 tons - the support load 22 tons remain, depending on the loading condition, on the axles of the trailer, thus 14 tons. Per axle converted 7 tonnes. There is no problem at all. The transport would be feasible in Germany. The width of the vehicle is another problem.
panzerbob01
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 04:56 AM UTC
Just as a suggestion concerning that Kraz and trailer and its modeled T-55 load...

See the picture at the following link; http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FQch1hpsB0c/VKvZT3Wa9oI/AAAAAAABVxk/oLVTQU4J74Q/s1600/Takom%2B2019%2BKrAZ-6446%2BTractor%2B%2B%2BChMZAP-5247G%2BSemi-trailer%2B(2).jpg

or Google Kraz 260V tank transporter and view the available images. I think that this pic actually posted via ModelingNews...

The load appears to be an early T-64 tank. The T-64 weighed in at about 42 US tons (short tons). The T-55 weighed in at about 39 - 40 US tons. The AMV and AM versions slightly more. So the Takom modeled tank load appears to be pretty comparable to the T-64 load in the photo. I would suggest that this photo appears to support that the Kraz 260V and that trailer could likely handle the load as modeled in the Takom kit.

Just an observation!

Bob
andymacrae
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 01:08 PM UTC
Found some more pics:



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/39/06/f6/3906f6d40cb53d06a44e336177d82cdc.jpg

Note however they show a different trailer the ChMZAP-9990, not the MAZ/ChMZAP-5247G.

andymacrae
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 01:23 PM UTC
Another:

https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/image/transf/dimension=465x1024:format=jpg/path/s2ce9f596fe7f0331/image/if01744e1306d1cc3/version/1449828898/image.jpg

Wonder if teh Takom kit shows a particularly Ukranian set-up?
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 04:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Found some more pics:



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/39/06/f6/3906f6d40cb53d06a44e336177d82cdc.jpg

Note however they show a different trailer the ChMZAP-9990, not the MAZ/ChMZAP-5247G.



The only problem with this picture is that the SP gun (Pion) is so heavy that the track pads under the two nearest roadwheels have been pressed into the deck of the trailer.
The load has also changed the shape of the Pion so that the front of the Pion is not parallell with the rear of the trailer even if the edge of the track is parallell with the side of the trailer.

Ohh, maybe this is caused by someone having used images taken from two different angles when photoshopping or whatever tool they used to create this clumsily faked image ?
/ Robin
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 05:07 PM UTC



Now THAT is a more reasonable load.
The rated payload of a truck is one thing, calculated to ensure a reasonable life expectancy of the various components, ability to brake et.c. There is often a factor 5 in these calculations. Transporting a T-55 could probably be done if the rig is "overloaded"

So: If you feel like it, go right ahead and load that T-55 and claim it was an emergency overload and may the d*v*l take the road traffic police.
Alternatively, load a BMP of some type.
/ Robin
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 05:18 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The trailer has a payload of 50 tonnes, divided on two axles with four wheels, the tractor has at least two axles with a load capacity of 11 tonnes, called the Sattellast 22Tonnen. 36 tons - the support load 22 tons remain, depending on the loading condition, on the axles of the trailer, thus 14 tons. Per axle converted 7 tonnes. There is no problem at all. The transport would be feasible in Germany. The width of the vehicle is another problem.



https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/KrAZ-260
"KrAZ-260W – Version als Sattelzugmaschine, die für ein zulässiges Gesamtgewicht von 27,5 t ausgelegt ist. Auf schlechten Straßen wird es auf 23 t reduziert."
Where did you get the 22 ton sattellast from?
If the 'zulässiges Gesamtgewicht' is 27,5 ton I find it hard to believe that 22 ton could be 'sattellast' leaving 5,5 ton for the whole tractor?
/ Robin
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 05:38 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Just as a suggestion concerning that Kraz and trailer and its modeled T-55 load...

See the picture at the following link; http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-FQch1hpsB0c/VKvZT3Wa9oI/AAAAAAABVxk/oLVTQU4J74Q/s1600/Takom%2B2019%2BKrAZ-6446%2BTractor%2B%2B%2BChMZAP-5247G%2BSemi-trailer%2B(2).jpg

or Google Kraz 260V tank transporter and view the available images. I think that this pic actually posted via ModelingNews...



The load appears to be an early T-64 tank. The T-64 weighed in at about 42 US tons (short tons). The T-55 weighed in at about 39 - 40 US tons. The AMV and AM versions slightly more. So the Takom modeled tank load appears to be pretty comparable to the T-64 load in the photo. I would suggest that this photo appears to support that the Kraz 260V and that trailer could likely handle the load as modeled in the Takom kit.

Just an observation!

Bob




This image pretends to be a Kraz-6446 which can be deduced from this part of the image link "s1600/Takom%2B2019%2BKrAZ-6446%2BTractor%2B%2B" and it so happens that the 6446 has a 23 ton payload capacity

However, the very same image is used in web-pages
https://www.trucksplanet.com/catalog/model.php?id=686 presenting the KrAZ T17.0EH "Burlak" which is designed "to transport trailers with gross weight up to 75 tons (twice more than the 6446 model with the same curb weight)".
50 tons tank + 25 tons trailer ....

Text only:
http://www.ukrexport.gov.ua/eng?new=3918&country=ukr
News flash about the Burlak.

Scroll far down on this discussion forum:
http://bolshoyforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9356.5980

Presentation on 'Autoline' in a language I can't read, maybe Google translate can ...
https://autoline.com.ua/news/seriynoe-proizvodstvo-kraz-t17-0eh-burlak-1284888772.html
but the image is there

Google: KrAZ T17.0EH "Burlak"

/ Robin
165thspc
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 08:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Found some more pics:



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/39/06/f6/3906f6d40cb53d06a44e336177d82cdc.jpg

Note however they show a different trailer the ChMZAP-9990, not the MAZ/ChMZAP-5247G.




And you might also note that the SPG being the heaviest load we have seen so far is causing the tractor suspension to compress while just sitting there parked. The trailer bed is slanting down slope towards the tractor.

All the trailers we have seen have no problem handling the load but that tractor is another question. It is way under rated for the job they are asking it to do, especially with that SPG. Also the SPG should have been shifted to the rear as much as possible to put a greater percentage of it's weight on the trailer axles.

My 2 cents. Worth what you paid for it.
janders
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 08:59 PM UTC
I'm one of the guys who bought this combo boxing, started to research the build, and then had doubts about the viability of the pairing.

From what I've been told on various forums, the included trailer likely could hold a T55AMV with minimal problem but the truck was not appropriate for the task. One can always say it was an "emergency" but certainly this wouldn't be the standard pairing.

As such you are left putting a smaller vehicle on the trailer, or getting a new truck/prime mover for the T55 and trailer.

It seems perhaps a BMP or similar might be appropriate for the boxed truck and trailer.

And if you want to replace the truck, a MAZ 537 such as this Trumpeter kit might be a good choice--
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/102747-trumpeter-01006-maz-537
RobinNilsson
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Posted: Sunday, September 24, 2017 - 09:39 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm one of the guys who bought this combo boxing, started to research the build, and then had doubts about the viability of the pairing.

From what I've been told on various forums, the included trailer likely could hold a T55AMV with minimal problem but the truck was not appropriate for the task. One can always say it was an "emergency" but certainly this wouldn't be the standard pairing.

As such you are left putting a smaller vehicle on the trailer, or getting a new truck/prime mover for the T55 and trailer.

It seems perhaps a BMP or similar might be appropriate for the boxed truck and trailer.

And if you want to replace the truck, a MAZ 537 such as this Trumpeter kit might be a good choice--
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/102747-trumpeter-01006-maz-537



Ahh yes!
Why not go the whole mile and choose this boxing instead:
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/106047-trumpeter-00212-maz-537g-with-maz-chmzap-5247g-semitrailer
seen loading a BMP which is half, or less, than the rated load
Maybe even load it with something really small like a
https://www.scalemates.com/kits/180937-meng-model-vs-003-tiger
just for the fun of it

/ Robin
janders
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Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 - 05:20 AM UTC
Yes this is my dilemma. Bought the kit precisely to make a funky Russian tank on a transporter. And I hate to let anything go to waste...

So do I:
(1) Buy new prime mover, use the T55AMV and trailer, and have an extra Kraz 260v lying around for... pulling a SAM?
(2) Buy a new subject to be towed, and use the Kraz 260v with the trailer to tow the new subject, and just build the T55AMV stand-alone (sadly this boxing doesn't come with all the decal options of the free-standing boxing of the T55 AMV).
(2b) Then what subject? BMP? Who makes a good BMP?


I'm leaning towards (1) and using the Kraz to pull an S300, but I like create ideas...
grunt136mike
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Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 - 09:30 AM UTC
Hi;

The only Good vehicles of the BMPs would be Trumpeter !
There are Ton's of other vehicles that would look good also BMDs, BTRs, MTLBs, BRDMs !!!! Then you would not have to be Concerned about the Weight of the Load !

CHEERS; MIKE.
andymacrae
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Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 - 01:26 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Yes this is my dilemma. Bought the kit precisely to make a funky Russian tank on a transporter. And I hate to let anything go to waste...

So do I:
(1) Buy new prime mover, use the T55AMV and trailer, and have an extra Kraz 260v lying around for... pulling a SAM?
(2) Buy a new subject to be towed, and use the Kraz 260v with the trailer to tow the new subject, and just build the T55AMV stand-alone (sadly this boxing doesn't come with all the decal options of the free-standing boxing of the T55 AMV).
(2b) Then what subject? BMP? Who makes a good BMP?


I'm leaning towards (1) and using the Kraz to pull an S300, but I like create ideas...



I'd go for option 2, but then I have plenty of BMP's, BMD's BDRM's etc in stash.
165thspc
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Posted: Monday, September 25, 2017 - 07:31 PM UTC
Well I would vote for option #1 and then see if Custom Factory doesn't make, for instance, a dump bed conversion for the lite Kraz tractor.
Jacques
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Posted: Thursday, September 28, 2017 - 08:59 AM UTC
Here is a page with Kraz 260V specs

And here is a page where you can calculate tow weights

Running the numbers, and remembering my brief time dealing with towing, hauling, and mechanics in the Army, and current rules with towing and hauling civilian equipment, it looks like the maximum SAFE load the truck/trailer combo can carry is 30 US short tonnes. That is to allow for proper breaking, accelerating, etc, not necessarily based on the load bearing capacity of the frame etc...

Overloading the vehicle with a T-55 at 40 US short tonnes would be a 125% overload of capacity, NOT a good idea, but one that could be done in emergencies, as noted.

AND...in Ukraine, especially in the first year, lots of VERY unsafe practices were used on both sides to move equipment and to fight. So I would not be surprised to see a picture of this combo for real, even more than once.

Most likely TAKOM wanted to sell the kits together and just assumed all was ok. Better to put a BMP on it, as suggested, for a "safe" load.
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