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Tread pattern on M47 roadwheels?
jstarn
Joined: July 19, 2014
KitMaker: 80 posts
Armorama: 74 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 17, 2017 - 10:03 PM UTC
Saw these at the !st. Division Museum at Cantigny. Have never seen a tread pattern on roadwheels before. There are three on the left side and three on the right. 2 each cross-hatched, 2 each two grooves, and two each three grooves. Any information?
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 18, 2017 - 12:09 AM UTC
Never, ever seen a tread pattern on a road wheel before.
The fact that there are three different patterns on both sides on one vehicle reeks of a test program. But that's all I got.
The fact that there are three different patterns on both sides on one vehicle reeks of a test program. But that's all I got.
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 18, 2017 - 01:50 AM UTC
Most M47 in the US are repatriated from Military aid recipients. It looks like the road wheels here had new locally sourced rubber put on from local tire factories that can only mold textured rubber. Looking closely at them they look almost like a tire somehow adapted to fit around the road wheel.
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 18, 2017 - 10:42 PM UTC
I'm sorry, but that highly unlikely. Road wheel rubber is different in composition to pneumatic tire rubber and is cast to the specific shape of the tires in question.
In addition, the tread we see on these tires is not terribly useful for a road vehicle. The grooves are useless on normal roads and the crossed tread pattern is too shallow to be of any use.
Paul
In addition, the tread we see on these tires is not terribly useful for a road vehicle. The grooves are useless on normal roads and the crossed tread pattern is too shallow to be of any use.
Paul
Bravo1102
Joined: December 08, 2003
KitMaker: 2,864 posts
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Posted: Monday, December 18, 2017 - 10:53 PM UTC
Textured rubber on a road wheel serves absolutely no purpose and I was told about this by a staffer at an armor museum while discussing the origin of their M47.
That rubber is not native to the road wheel. It is not properly formed to it. And that rubber looks like typical tire rubber not the hard rubber on the other road wheels. I know road wheels haveing changed enough of them after chunking and worn rubber. That textured rubber doesn't look like it would last one road march.
You're a great model builder but you don't know track maintenance.
That rubber is not native to the road wheel. It is not properly formed to it. And that rubber looks like typical tire rubber not the hard rubber on the other road wheels. I know road wheels haveing changed enough of them after chunking and worn rubber. That textured rubber doesn't look like it would last one road march.
You're a great model builder but you don't know track maintenance.
barkingdigger
Associate Editor
#013
Joined: June 20, 2008
KitMaker: 3,981 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 12:08 AM UTC
Gotta say, this looks like an excellent diorama idea in the making! It's bound to score a "fail" at a typical contest, since the judges wouldn't believe it...
I think we're all agreed the tread patterns are useless on a tank road wheel, and the pic is some weird local retread project gone mad. The question is, are these actually moulded to the steel wheels, or some kind of crafty slip-fit of a tractor tyre? I can't see how a tractor tyre could have its side walls cut with such perfectly circular holes, but without getting up close to the real thing to give it a poke it is hard to tell.
It isn't beyond credibility that some tyre maker was approached to re-skin old road wheels, and used the moulds they already had on hand to form the rubber on the steel. That'd explain the pointless treads on the otherwise-solid rubber, but I'd bet they had a really short service life!
(Always model from photos - they're stranger than "truth"...).
I think we're all agreed the tread patterns are useless on a tank road wheel, and the pic is some weird local retread project gone mad. The question is, are these actually moulded to the steel wheels, or some kind of crafty slip-fit of a tractor tyre? I can't see how a tractor tyre could have its side walls cut with such perfectly circular holes, but without getting up close to the real thing to give it a poke it is hard to tell.
It isn't beyond credibility that some tyre maker was approached to re-skin old road wheels, and used the moulds they already had on hand to form the rubber on the steel. That'd explain the pointless treads on the otherwise-solid rubber, but I'd bet they had a really short service life!
(Always model from photos - they're stranger than "truth"...).
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 06:32 AM UTC
For a period of time in WW II Sherman bogie wheels were made with grooved tires. I have not seen an explanation, but likely reasons are to conserve rubber or to make up for deficiencies in early synthetic rubber compositions. I have seen a small number (less than 5) on surviving vehicles. At any rate, there was a note in an early 1945 Army Motors mentioning that the grooved tires weren't working out and that no more would be installed or issued. (Not really relevant to the M47, but at least it shows the idea was out there.)
Hey OP: Did you happen to record or photograph any of the sidewall markings? Those would tell a tale, even if the tires were completely blank.
KL
Hey OP: Did you happen to record or photograph any of the sidewall markings? Those would tell a tale, even if the tires were completely blank.
KL
Removed by original poster on 12/20/17 - 02:53:22 (GMT).
jstarn
Joined: July 19, 2014
KitMaker: 80 posts
Armorama: 74 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 03:25 PM UTC
Kurt, I'm pretty sure that there was a "Goodyear" on the sidewall of one of the tires.
If time allows, I'll get back down there this week and check again, and get photos.
If time allows, I'll get back down there this week and check again, and get photos.
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 05:27 PM UTC
They look like forklift or scissor lift tires. Those are solid rubber and non pneumatic.
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 06:26 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Saw these at the !st. Division Museum at Cantigny. Have never seen a tread pattern on roadwheels before. There are three on the left side and three on the right. 2 each cross-hatched, 2 each two grooves, and two each three grooves. Any information?
Has anyone asked the staff at the museum?
/ Robin
jstarn
Joined: July 19, 2014
KitMaker: 80 posts
Armorama: 74 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 07:27 PM UTC
Not yet. Will try to contact someone, maybe after the holidays.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 07:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Not yet. Will try to contact someone, maybe after the holidays.
Sounds like a good plan. They would probably go nuts if we all started asking about that rubber
The "deviant" rubber is visible in the photo of the M47 on this web-page:
https://www.fdmuseum.org/exhibit/m47-patton-tank/
Contacts for the collections:
https://www.fdmuseum.org/contact-us/
click on 'Museum Collections' in the menu on the left side.
I think I would try William or Shane ...
It will be interesting to see the answer
/ Robin
jstarn
Joined: July 19, 2014
KitMaker: 80 posts
Armorama: 74 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 08:13 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Great minds think alike. Email on its way to Shane.Quoted TextNot yet. Will try to contact someone, maybe after the holidays.
Sounds like a good plan. They would probably go nuts if we all started asking about that rubber
The "deviant" rubber is visible in the photo of the M47 on this web-page:
https://www.fdmuseum.org/exhibit/m47-patton-tank/
Contacts for the collections:
https://www.fdmuseum.org/contact-us/
click on 'Museum Collections' in the menu on the left side.
I think I would try William or Shane ...
It will be interesting to see the answer
/ Robin
Update: Out of the office until Jan. 3. So, an New Years project.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 08:56 PM UTC
Quoted Text
....
Update: Out of the office until Jan. 3. So, an New Years project.
Out of the office .... hmmm sounds pleasant ...
I would like to be out of office too
/ Robin
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 09:09 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Textured rubber on a road wheel serves absolutely no purpose and I was told about this by a staffer at an armor museum while discussing the origin of their M47.
Totally agree.
Quoted Text
That rubber is not native to the road wheel. It is not properly formed to it.
I would agree except looking at the tires in the larger photo, I am at a loss to see any lip, ridge or seam indicating that the treaded sections are not moulded integrally with the rest of the tire. A retread experiment make sense, but I just don't see a seam. I await enlightenment.
Quoted Text
And that rubber looks like typical tire rubber not the hard rubber on the other road wheels.
Gotta say it looks exactly like the rubber on the other wheels to me. But, let me know what you're seeing, I'm no hard over on this, just looking for evidence.
Quoted Text
I know road wheels haveing changed enough of them after chunking and worn rubber. That textured rubber doesn't look like it would last one road march.
Agree totally, which is why it mystifies me.
Quoted Text
You're a great model builder but you don't know track maintenance.
There is nothing in my previous statements that implies I know anything about track maintenance, so I'm not sure why you say this?
I know a little about very heavy equipment tires (120 ton and 175 ton haul trucks) and using retreads on them and, from that, you can always see a line, an indication, that the tire has been through the retread process. I see none of that here. Again, the mystery.
Paul
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Tuesday, December 19, 2017 - 10:47 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Has anyone asked the staff at the museum?
I am pretty confident that the information they have is not worth the price of a stamp or a phone call. The tanks are is the configuration they were in when they rolled off the trailer that delivered them.
KL
jstarn
Joined: July 19, 2014
KitMaker: 80 posts
Armorama: 74 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - 01:18 AM UTC
Okay, here's what we've got:
All the smooth roadwheels are roadwheels, marked "U.S. Royal Roadwheel 26x5.
All the grooved and one pair of diamond tread are 'Firestone'
and there is one pair of "Goodyear" diamond pattern:
They all look like they were molded to the steel part, and several show deep chunking.
Gotta be some kind of test rig.
All the smooth roadwheels are roadwheels, marked "U.S. Royal Roadwheel 26x5.
All the grooved and one pair of diamond tread are 'Firestone'
and there is one pair of "Goodyear" diamond pattern:
They all look like they were molded to the steel part, and several show deep chunking.
Gotta be some kind of test rig.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
KitMaker: 2,402 posts
Armorama: 2,377 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - 06:05 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Okay, here's what we've got:
All the smooth roadwheels are roadwheels, marked "U.S. Royal Roadwheel 26x5.
All the grooved and one pair of diamond tread are 'Firestone'
and there is one pair of "Goodyear" diamond pattern:
They all look like they were molded to the steel part, and several show deep chunking.
Gotta be some kind of test rig.
Even a test piece would have the tire size, part number, serial, etc. molded in. That's standard even for one-off pieces, like the solid tires used on the 105mm AT gun at APG. The practice is also long-standing: I've seen 155mm GPF and 4.7-inch gun carriage tires from the 1920s and 30s with these markings.
KL
jstarn
Joined: July 19, 2014
KitMaker: 80 posts
Armorama: 74 posts
Posted: Wednesday, December 20, 2017 - 11:34 PM UTC
There did appear to be a part number on the U.S. Royal wheels, but I could'nt make out anything on the others.
Here's what I heard from the historic vehicles guy at the museum (so far):"the M47 came to us in the shape it is currently in around 1976 from Aberdeen, Maryland. Being from that location, it is possible the features you mentioned are from a pilot program of some type (our T26E4 also came to us from Aberdeen). I will look into our old documentation after the holiday and see if I can find anything more on it."
Here's what I heard from the historic vehicles guy at the museum (so far):"the M47 came to us in the shape it is currently in around 1976 from Aberdeen, Maryland. Being from that location, it is possible the features you mentioned are from a pilot program of some type (our T26E4 also came to us from Aberdeen). I will look into our old documentation after the holiday and see if I can find anything more on it."
tankmodeler
#417
Joined: March 01, 2004
KitMaker: 3,123 posts
Armorama: 2,539 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 13, 2018 - 12:54 AM UTC
Any advance on this curious issue?
Paul
Paul
jstarn
Joined: July 19, 2014
KitMaker: 80 posts
Armorama: 74 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2018 - 01:18 AM UTC
Update, yesterday (17th):
"Haven’t had the chance over the holidays and with myself being in and out of the office for some other occupational stuff. Hoping to delve into this when I’m not knee-deep in Liberty Truck research."
"Haven’t had the chance over the holidays and with myself being in and out of the office for some other occupational stuff. Hoping to delve into this when I’m not knee-deep in Liberty Truck research."
Iraqiwildman
Joined: November 24, 2008
KitMaker: 93 posts
Armorama: 81 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2018 - 02:07 AM UTC
I've been in the tire business since 1990. Those look like to me they are press-on tires for a forklift or man lift. Firestone and Goodyear make a grooved tread like these. It also looks like they might have cut the steel inner ring out to make the diameter the same as the tanks wheel. I did not see this ring on the close up photos.
I would say whatever country they got this tank back from did this since they probably could not find original equipment wheels.
I would say whatever country they got this tank back from did this since they probably could not find original equipment wheels.
Iraqiwildman
Joined: November 24, 2008
KitMaker: 93 posts
Armorama: 81 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2018 - 02:23 AM UTC
Here is a photo of a press-on tire with the metal inner ring still attached. Tank road wheels are usually made as a solid unit - the rubber is vulcanized to the steel wheel. Forklifts and other industrial equipment are made so the solid rubber tire can be pressed off with a hydraulic press and a new tire pressed on.
babaoriley
Joined: June 23, 2017
KitMaker: 195 posts
Armorama: 179 posts
Posted: Thursday, January 18, 2018 - 02:58 AM UTC
Quoted Text
They look like forklift or scissor lift tires. Those are solid rubber and non pneumatic.
That occurred to me, that these rubber rims came from some industrial machinery maker who adapted an existing design to fit the M47 road wheels.
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