Good morning from a long-time lurker,
I have 2 questions regarding IDF half-tracks of the 1948 - 1967 eras.
I've seen several half-track models with a German 37mm flak gun mounted. Fact or fiction? Any photographic evidence for it?
Secondly, the M3 (M16B per Tom Cannon's Israeli Half-tracks, Volume Two) with the twin TCM 20s mounted on a revised Maxson turret. Did the IDF use the original quad .50s at all? Again, any photographic evidence?
Thank you all,
Alan
Hosted by Darren Baker
IDF Half-tracks
Alanroy
Joined: March 27, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 02:36 AM UTC
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 03:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Did the IDF use the original quad .50s at all? Again, any photographic evidence?
M45 Quadmount on M3:
M55 Quadmount on BTR-152:
Alanroy
Joined: March 27, 2006
KitMaker: 65 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 03:37 AM UTC
Thank you, kind Sir!
So the M45 is a twin .50, and the M55 is the quad? And what, exactly, is the BTR-152?
So the M45 is a twin .50, and the M55 is the quad? And what, exactly, is the BTR-152?
jfeenstra
Joined: April 24, 2014
KitMaker: 342 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 03:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thank you, kind Sir!
So the M45 is a twin .50, and the M55 is the quad? And what, exactly, is the BTR-152?
BTR-152 is a Russian built APC captured from the Egyptians.
Alanroy
Joined: March 27, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 04:02 AM UTC
Thank you!
Alan
Alan
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 04:02 AM UTC
Quoted Text
So the M45 is a twin .50, and the M55 is the quad?
No. When you put an M45 quad turret on an M20 trailer you get the M55 Machine Gun Trailer Mount. This was then dropped into a BTR-152.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 05:02 AM UTC
The twin gun variant of the Maxson turret is the M33. It was used on the M13 MGMC (and the M5-based M14 MGMC) :
H.P.
H.P.
M_Wittmann
Joined: August 25, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 07:23 AM UTC
True, HP. It could also have been used on an M2 or M3, as your photo suggests.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 07:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
True, HP. It could also have been used on an M2 or M3, as your photo suggests.
In fact I've checked out the larger version of the picture I've posted and realized that it was indeed a M3 fitted with a M45 mount with the two lower MGs removed
Here's a M13 MGMC :
and a M14 :
H.P.
Alanroy
Joined: March 27, 2006
KitMaker: 65 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 08:05 AM UTC
Thank you. That must be what they did in the picture of the Israeli M3, as I only see 2 .50s.
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 08:11 AM UTC
Quoted Text
That must be what they did in the picture of the Israeli M3, as I only see 2 .50s.
I don't think so. The lower barrel, as well as the rear magazine can be clearly seen.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 08:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thank you. That must be what they did in the picture of the Israeli M3, as I only see 2 .50s.
I guess the 4 MGs are there. You can notice the ammo box of the lower gun behind the top gun one. The lower gun barrel is even faintly visible through the dust..
Edit : Israel has beaten me to it
H.P.
Alanroy
Joined: March 27, 2006
KitMaker: 65 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 08:27 AM UTC
Ah, yes, I had forgotten that the upper guns were mounted forward of the lower ones.
Thank you one and all so much for the guidance!
Back to sleep ....
Thank you one and all so much for the guidance!
Back to sleep ....
Alanroy
Joined: March 27, 2006
KitMaker: 65 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 08:27 AM UTC
And now to wait for the question about the German 37mm flak gun.
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 05:31 PM UTC
Quoted Text
And now to wait for the question about the German 37mm flak gun.
I would say highly unlikely. I haven’t been able to find any evidence of the IDF using the German 37mm Flak, let alone mounted on a Halftrack. The IDF did, however, use the similar looking 40mm Bofors gun (not mounted on Halftracks though).
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 11:28 PM UTC
I've found another picture of an IDF M16 from the Six-Day War.
hazzardm
Joined: May 13, 2010
KitMaker: 53 posts
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 11:46 PM UTC
Same reply on ML
I saw Graeme's IDF/37mm model in the flesh in Canada some years ago, he confirmed it was a 'what if'
MJH
I saw Graeme's IDF/37mm model in the flesh in Canada some years ago, he confirmed it was a 'what if'
MJH
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 11:57 PM UTC
Mystery solved then. 
Alanroy
Joined: March 27, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, June 27, 2019 - 11:59 PM UTC
Thank you, Israel.
I can see the hinges for folding the sides down. Looking at the very first picture I can also barely make out the same hinges. So is the first picture actually an M16?
I can see the hinges for folding the sides down. Looking at the very first picture I can also barely make out the same hinges. So is the first picture actually an M16?
ReluctantRenegade
Joined: March 09, 2016
KitMaker: 2,408 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 12:26 AM UTC
I think it is...
Alanroy
Joined: March 27, 2006
KitMaker: 65 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 01:39 AM UTC
Thank you, one and all. So either I go with the Dragon M3 with TCM 20, or get an M16.
Hmmm, last question. Tamiya, Dragon, or AFV Club?
Hmmm, last question. Tamiya, Dragon, or AFV Club?
Alanroy
Joined: March 27, 2006
KitMaker: 65 posts
Armorama: 44 posts
Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 02:02 AM UTC
I think it will be the Dragon kit. Tamiya is pretty old, and I can't find any reviews for the AFV Club kit. Of course it may be a fable, as I only saw it on eBay.
Alanroy
Joined: March 27, 2006
KitMaker: 65 posts
Armorama: 44 posts
Posted: Friday, June 28, 2019 - 02:31 AM UTC
Ok, the AFV Club kit says "design in progress". So now I'll just have to wait.
Thank you all again!
Alan
Thank you all again!
Alan
Alanroy
Joined: March 27, 2006
KitMaker: 65 posts
Armorama: 44 posts
Posted: Monday, August 05, 2019 - 11:01 AM UTC
Me again.
I just noticed the the M16 pictures do not show the cut-out in the top of the armor plate. So maybe like the M16Bs? The turret mounted high?
My head hurts ....
I just noticed the the M16 pictures do not show the cut-out in the top of the armor plate. So maybe like the M16Bs? The turret mounted high?
My head hurts ....
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