Hi,

I need help with the new T-90 tank. I read that the Russians have started modernizing their tanks from T-72, T-80 to T-90.

The new T-90 is called the T-90M or Provy-3. What interests me, and nowhere to find information; are T-90M and T-90MS the same tanks ??

It can be seen from the picture that Provy-3 has an added net (or bars in some cases) below the turret for protection. Some examples also have Relict 3-rd generation explosive-reactive armor (ERA) in soft or flexible packages.

So are these two things the difference between the T-90M and the T90MS?

Thank you

Val

The T-90MS is the current upgrade package on the T-90S.

The main visible differences include using Relikt ERA on the -MS over the Kontakt-5 used on the latest T-90S versions, plus installation of the RWS on the turret-top, and a few other details... The -MS has a new engine and some internal changes, too, but these are not visible externally. There are also new camera systems, some new surface-mount detectors, and other external sensor changes and a new sight-system on the -MS.

The post-2016 -MS package has also introduced some ball-and-chain / net skirting on the turret (that would be a great enhancement on an MS build! ), and some changes to the bar / slat armor bits. The RWS has also been modified in the production-approved post-2016 -MS design. For us -MS modelers, that newer RWS is available as an AM kit, I think, but does not, alas, show up in the Trumpeter or Tiger Model later-version -MS kits. Blah!


The nomenclature of course continues to confuse us!

Cheers! Bob

Thanks Bob.

Those T-90S and T90MS differences are clear to me.
The question is about the T-90MS and T-90M. Is there a difference or just a word game?

I thought the T90M was for the Russian ARMY and T90MS was for export

Somehow it seems to me that this is about export or domestic modernization.
I see only three external differences: mesh, soft side armor and a "new" type of turret armor.

T-90MS





T-90M

As an occasional visitor to the Russian forum, I 'm confused at which T90 version will be the main Russian Army T90 version. From my discussions I was told the T90A was the Russian army version and the M series was for export. I also read some literature about the export version to India would become the Russian version also because the Indians had paid for the research and development for some nice upgrades and to use the same upgrades would save money since the R and D had already been done. So there lies my confusion.
Which version and upgrades will be the Russian standard version of the T90?

You raise some interesting points, TopS.

India started up buying the original T-90S (S = export for the T-90) with the cast turret and Kontakt-3 or -5 ERA in 2001. Part way through the order, India started assembling these at home from parts kits, but using the new welded T-90A type turret (the supply of cast turrets having ended...). Somewhere around 2006 or so, India bought a license to make a slightly upgraded T-90A welded turret version with some "AM" French thermal sight equipment and some other detail tweaks. This new T-90S made-in-India export version was named the T-90M "Bhishma". Notably, the Bhishma uses the same Kontakt 3 / 5 ERA as on the Russian domestic T-90A - also seen on the Algerian export T-90SA.

(Trumpeter has actually kitted the earlier Indian T-90S w/ the cast turret... the welded turret T-90A kit would be appropriate to model the post-2004 welded turret Bhishma - providing one does the various little detail changes...)

The T-90A welded turret was developed initially for the Indian market and with some involvement from Indian engineers. The welded turret was adopted for all Russian T-90A manufacture, as the cast turret production had ended and no more would be produced.

FAIK, ALL post-2004 Indian Bhishma tanks are upgraded versions of the T-90A welded turret version with the Kontakt 3/5 ERA or, in the most recent series, Kontakt 5 with additional "Kaktus-6" ERA on the hull front / glacis. NO Bhishma appears to have the RWS seen on the current and recent Russian T-90M and MS tanks. All have the original T-90A type AA-MG mount on the commander's cupola.

The Russian domestic T-90M / MS tanks have a newer ERA system called "Relikt" - Relikt is available for export on the newer T-90M / MS versions, FAIK. And, of course, the T-90M / MS tanks have one of 2 types of RWS, together with the turret "bustle" used for additional ammo storage.

There seems to be some on-going nomenclature confusion - T-90 (cast turret) and T-90A (welded turret, new engine, sight detail changes) were original Russian domestic production and use tanks - both -90 and -90A are now seen in Syria... The T-90S was the T-90 / T-90A export version sold to several countries. The T-90SA was an export version of the T-90 modified specifically for the Algerians. India purchased many T-90S, and actually ended up assembling T-90A-export models as the first Bhishma version. Later (post-2006 or so) Bhishma have been labelled "T-90M Bhishma" - but are in fact upgraded T-90A export mods built under license. The T-90M and T-90MS designations seem to refer to post-2013 Russian upgrading and mods to the T-90A welded turret tank, with new engines, addition of the turret ammo bustle, Relikt ERA and RWS, and other stuff - none of which, FAIK, appear on any of the Bhishma versions. The most recent Russian -90M / -90MS versions have the added soft-side armor kit, a new active defense system, and the new chain / net & ball turret skirts.

I am unsure about whether the MS designation is for T-90M which will be exported - seems possible. The has been some apparent strong intent by the Russians to market the newest T-90M versions as an export system, and this may well be the version labelled T-90MS - albeit how the M and MS really differ, in that case, I do not know!

Cheers! Bob

So for domestic comsumption the T90 A is done and the MS or M will be the one produced or are they continuing to make the "A" for home use?

The Russians have launched a program Vladimir to modernize their T-72, T-80 and T90 tanks. The T-72 became T-72B4 (or T-72B3 2016), the T-80 became T-80BVM, and all existing T-90 go to the T-90M standard. The project will run from 2020-2025. year. Due to the huge modernization, production of the T-14 is currently delayed.

T-72B4





T-80BVM





T-90M

My understanding is pretty much what Val said - ALL the current newer-type in-service models (T-90A, T-80, more-recent T-72B types) are slated for upgrades.

The T-90A types will be generally upgraded to the current M / MS standards - with new active defense systems, new sensor and sight packages, replacing Kontakt 5 ERA with Relikt, and probably some will have turret-roof mods to install the M / MS RWS. The new chain / net and ball turret skirts will probably be added, and some are likely to get some or all of the bar and slat armor add-ons seen on the T-90M/MS tanks. So, in effect, the T90A fleet will become more-or-less T-90M / MS in equipment standard and over-all appearance.

I doubt that the T-72B fleet will get the full Relikt ERA set or the T-90M / MS RWS, and probably only some of the sensor upgrade package. In part, because the T-72 series all sport the cast turret, options for ERA and sensor changes are limited, compared to T-90A welded turret types.

It appears that the Russians have recognized that upgrading their current tank swarm to a reasonably enhanced standard is likely more cost-effective then trying to create yet another vehicle series in service. Even Vlad recognizes that he cannot just print lots more money whenever he wants new toys in his box!

So far as I understand what-all those Rooshians are up to!

Cheers! Bob

Would Tiger Models T90MS represent the new package or should we wait to see an official MS production package from Russia?

Hi;

TMs T-90 is way ahead of Trumpeter's MS !
I have Built Both; The Trumpeter version had some fit issues along the Turret Side Armor, and I am not A fan of there plastic, its to soft

CHEERS; MIKE.

I'm building the later TM T-90MS (the "'13 - '15" kit) as we "speak". It's a neat and rather clean build with no problems to report.

It does, however, share a failing with the Trumpeter later version kit... The RWS in all Trumpeter and Tiger T-90MS kits are the same - the earlier model RWS. I think that I may have mentioned this problem before. There is an "AM" resin RWS kit available to make the most-recent RWS set-up for the T-90MS / T-90M. I THINK that Zvezda has a later-version kit out - which MAY have the correct later-version RWS. It's reputed to be an OK kit in most ways, albeit a little softer in some details.

There is, FAIK, no styrene T-90MS kit out that includes the most-recent chain skirting and a few other newer details, so, if one wants the latest and greatest T-90M / MS version, that chain skirt will have to be scratched. I do expect that some AM parts-maker will come out with a set sometime fairly soon, as there could be a market for such with folks who seek to build the current T-90M / MS as we understand will be the new Russian standard.

Bob

For now we have 4S24 Soft Case ERA for T-90M from Miniarm.

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/miniarm-35188-4s24-soft-case-era-t-72b3-bmpt-t-90m--1210846

It's worth to wait for what Zvezda or Trumpeter will say.

Here is the T-90M. You can compare it yourself. There are quite a few external differences from the T-90MS.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/realhokum/albums/72157670901265287