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Takom tyres chemicaly react.
Langemarck
Joined: April 24, 2008
KitMaker: 20 posts
Armorama: 16 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 06:00 AM UTC
After more then 1 year I decided to continue the build of the Hanomag ss100 + V2 + meilerwagen kit. Found out that the rubber/vinyl tyres chemicaly react with the plastic parts of the kit. They sticked to each other, the plastic was softened and the profile and markings that are on the tyre were "printed" in the plastic part. Has someone had the same experience? How can i solve the problem, because as the tyres end up on platic rims, there will be a similar problem after some time
RobinNilsson
TOS Moderator
Joined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 06:10 AM UTC
I have experienced this with the tyres on an Italeri Opel Blitz and their Katyusha rocket launcher. The DS-material used by Dragon leaks softener to the surroundings.
The problem here is that the softener used to make the tyres soft will contaminate the styrene and make it soft.
Enamel paint could act as a barrier between the tyre and the styrene in the rim of the wheel.
I would replace the tyres/wheels with resin wheels.
/ Robin
The problem here is that the softener used to make the tyres soft will contaminate the styrene and make it soft.
Enamel paint could act as a barrier between the tyre and the styrene in the rim of the wheel.
I would replace the tyres/wheels with resin wheels.
/ Robin
mligthart
Joined: July 07, 2015
KitMaker: 46 posts
Armorama: 44 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 07:40 AM UTC
I had the same issue with the Takom BMW. I made a new one and used a layer of superglue between tyre and rim and hope this will be sufficient. After six months all is still okay.
rgds
Michel
rgds
Michel
Grauwolf
#084
Joined: September 14, 2005
KitMaker: 2,485 posts
Armorama: 743 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 07:42 AM UTC
Marc,
Save yourself some headaches and replace them with resin ones:
Hanomag SS100 Wheel Set
Def.Model - No. DW30043 - 1:35
Cheers,
Save yourself some headaches and replace them with resin ones:
Hanomag SS100 Wheel Set
Def.Model - No. DW30043 - 1:35
Cheers,
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 08:21 AM UTC
More generically, it seems that Takom has followed in the footsteps of several other kit mfgr's and is using a soft vinyl compound which is leaking and out-gassing and causing styrene bits to soften and melt.
Unless you want to buy resin AM tires, painting the styrene rims is about the best work-around. We don't yet have any good data on how long these Takom tires will last on a build... But it certainly seems that folks should be concerned.
And that's bad news, as AM resin tires are not cheap, and may not be available for all the effected kits.
Bob
Unless you want to buy resin AM tires, painting the styrene rims is about the best work-around. We don't yet have any good data on how long these Takom tires will last on a build... But it certainly seems that folks should be concerned.
And that's bad news, as AM resin tires are not cheap, and may not be available for all the effected kits.
Bob
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 09:36 AM UTC
This is upsetting. I have the 1/35 Takom V1 & SS 100 kit-- there's a lot of wheels to replace there, but nothing compared to my Takom 1/72 M1070 & M1001 trailer kit, which has a bazillion tiny wheels! I don't think there's any aftermarket wheels for that kit. I've been building a long time, long enough to have a 1959 set of Monogram 1/34 Jeep & 37mm gun wheels in my collection, and those wheels are just fine after 60 years! I don't see why manufacturers can't make kit wheels out of plastic, or decent vinyl (like the Monogram ones). It would sure save us all a lot of trouble and bellyaching! Guess I'm preaching to the choir... we should revolt.
VR, Russ
VR, Russ
TopSmith
Joined: August 09, 2002
KitMaker: 1,742 posts
Armorama: 1,658 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 09:41 AM UTC
Maybe Dragon and Takon use the same vinyl manufacturer for their tires and just add the tires into their kits like you do PE or aluminum barrels.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 10:29 AM UTC
Russ,
Maybe you could ask Balaton Modell if he could sell the resin wheels separately?
http://www.balatonmodellshop.co.uk/spd/BM7220/M1070-HET
The tractor and the trailer kits are on sale and they include PE so maybe the whole kit isn't a bad deal either ...
/ Robin
Maybe you could ask Balaton Modell if he could sell the resin wheels separately?
http://www.balatonmodellshop.co.uk/spd/BM7220/M1070-HET
The tractor and the trailer kits are on sale and they include PE so maybe the whole kit isn't a bad deal either ...
/ Robin
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 11:13 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Russ,
Maybe you could ask Balaton Modell if he could sell the resin wheels separately?
http://www.balatonmodellshop.co.uk/spd/BM7220/M1070-HET
The tractor and the trailer kits are on sale and they include PE so maybe the whole kit isn't a bad deal either ...
/ Robin
Robin... hmmm, that's a good idea there! But it still gripes me that we have to hunt for aftermarket stuff like wheels in this day and age. Considering they had it right in 1959!
VR, Russ
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 11:38 AM UTC
We could also see it as an incentive to try casting our own resin copies of the "rubber" tires included in the kits.
Make a mold of the complete wheel and then cast with the styrene rim in the center of the mold. Casting the tyre in place around the rim
/ Robin
Make a mold of the complete wheel and then cast with the styrene rim in the center of the mold. Casting the tyre in place around the rim
/ Robin
brekinapez
Joined: July 26, 2013
KitMaker: 2,272 posts
Armorama: 1,860 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 11:47 AM UTC
Cool. More boxes to go check. Fortunately, I don't yet have a lot of Takom that would use tires.
Got a lot of DS, though...
Got a lot of DS, though...
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 11:50 AM UTC
I got the almost brand new torpedo carrying Ka-Tsu earlier this week. It has two sets of DS-tracks (needs 1.7 tracks each side) and I have to assume that they are reasonably new. I will monitor them and see if thay also turn rotten after a while. There are some suspicious spots on the plastic bags they are enclosed in.
/ Robin
/ Robin
panzerbob01
Joined: March 06, 2010
KitMaker: 3,128 posts
Armorama: 2,959 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 04:43 PM UTC
Wellllll..... Looking on the bright side.... Lots of us armor modelers want our tires to be a little sagged and showing some load on their shoulders... Takom may be anticipating this desire and is selling us tires which will soften and sag realistically with age! 
You won't have to go out and buy a usually-expensive AM set of resin "sagged tires" for your Takom kit!
You won't have to go out and buy a usually-expensive AM set of resin "sagged tires" for your Takom kit! RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 05:28 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Wellllll..... Looking on the bright side.... Lots of us armor modelers want our tires to be a little sagged and showing some load on their shoulders... Takom may be anticipating this desire and is selling us tires which will soften and sag realistically with age!
We want the tires to sag, not the rims .....
mudlark
Joined: June 18, 2019
KitMaker: 28 posts
Armorama: 27 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 05:54 PM UTC
I've never understood why some model companies have to use vinyl for tires.
AgentG
Joined: December 21, 2008
KitMaker: 1,109 posts
Armorama: 1,095 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 06:07 PM UTC
Model car manufacturers have been using vinyl tires for decades now. The results are the same.
spongya
Associate Editor
Joined: February 01, 2005
KitMaker: 2,365 posts
Armorama: 1,709 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 06:50 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I've never understood why some model companies have to use vinyl for tires.
This really annoys me. Vinyl is more difficult to paint, to weather, AND it reacts with the plastic. Why not just use plastic tires, like MiniArt does? What does vinyl provide for a static model apart from melting it?
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Wednesday, September 18, 2019 - 07:14 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI've never understood why some model companies have to use vinyl for tires.
This really annoys me. Vinyl is more difficult to paint, to weather, AND it reacts with the plastic. Why not just use plastic tires, like MiniArt does? What does vinyl provide for a static model apart from melting it?
The metal molds are a bit more expensive to make, use and maintain. Hard plastic in a hard mold needs must not have any reverse angles. The pattern of a tyre requires a multi section mold to avoid reverse angles.
Soft vinyl in hard molds or hard resin in soft silicone molds works fine but hard in hard is expensive,
It can be done, I have some kits where they have done it.
There is obviously a way to solve the problem so other manufacturers are simply lazy
vettejack
Joined: November 23, 2012
KitMaker: 1,277 posts
Armorama: 1,254 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 12:14 AM UTC
No matter who makes the kit...if rubber tires and/or tracks are in them, they are immediately trashed. Eventually the aftermarket comes to the rescue with resin (or other non rubber material) replacements. If not, then the kits sits on the shelf until an alternative appears. My 2 cents!
spongya
Associate EditorJoined: February 01, 2005
KitMaker: 2,365 posts
Armorama: 1,709 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 01:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextI've never understood why some model companies have to use vinyl for tires.
This really annoys me. Vinyl is more difficult to paint, to weather, AND it reacts with the plastic. Why not just use plastic tires, like MiniArt does? What does vinyl provide for a static model apart from melting it?
The metal molds are a bit more expensive to make, use and maintain. Hard plastic in a hard mold needs must not have any reverse angles. The pattern of a tyre requires a multi section mold to avoid reverse angles.
Soft vinyl in hard molds or hard resin in soft silicone molds works fine but hard in hard is expensive,
It can be done, I have some kits where they have done it.
There is obviously a way to solve the problem so other manufacturers are simply lazy
MiniArt solved this issue with thin sections glued together to form a tire... so you do not even have to have special, multidimensional slide molds. (https://miniart-models.com/products/35103/ see the instructions.) Tiger models also provided one-piece tires for their armored car... so yeah. They are lazy -and force us to spend more on kits.
RobinNilsson
TOS ModeratorJoined: November 29, 2006
KitMaker: 6,693 posts
Armorama: 5,562 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 01:14 AM UTC
I know about the Miniart wheels, I have many boxes of them 
This can be done for some patterns but not for all.
BUT there are manufacturers who have done slide mould solutions and STILL managed to set a reasonable price for the whole kit so it CAN be done.
Tyres compressed under load should also be possible to do with slide-moulding.
Before Kurt joins this thread:
The companies are in it for the money and they will continue to pump out slimy tires until customers start turning away ....
/ Robin
This can be done for some patterns but not for all.
BUT there are manufacturers who have done slide mould solutions and STILL managed to set a reasonable price for the whole kit so it CAN be done.
Tyres compressed under load should also be possible to do with slide-moulding.
Before Kurt joins this thread:
The companies are in it for the money and they will continue to pump out slimy tires until customers start turning away ....
/ Robin
Kevlar06
Joined: March 15, 2009
KitMaker: 3,670 posts
Armorama: 2,052 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 03:48 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Model car manufacturers have been using vinyl tires for decades now. The results are the same.
This isn't necessarily true in all cases -- read my post above about the 1959 Monogram tires I still have today. And I have some car tires dating back to the 70s that are still good (that said, I do have a few that have gone bad over the years too). I think it just depends on what formulation a particular manufacturer uses. My Jo-Han, Monogram and AMT tires have seemed to hold up better than some others.
VR, Russ
GeraldOwens
Joined: March 30, 2006
KitMaker: 3,736 posts
Armorama: 3,697 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 07:20 AM UTC
Another workaround is to use Bare Metal foil on the styrene rims to prevent the vinyl from attacking it. Bare Metal is used to simulate aluminum on aircraft kits. It's actual metal.
Frenchy
Joined: December 02, 2002
KitMaker: 12,719 posts
Armorama: 12,507 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 07:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Another workaround is to use Bare Metal foil on the styrene rims to prevent the vinyl from attacking it. Bare Metal is used to simulate aluminum on aircraft kits. It's actual metal.
I guess aluminium tape from a hardware store could be a cheaper alterative :
H.P.
Scarred
Joined: March 11, 2016
KitMaker: 1,792 posts
Armorama: 1,186 posts
Posted: Thursday, September 19, 2019 - 10:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextAnother workaround is to use Bare Metal foil on the styrene rims to prevent the vinyl from attacking it. Bare Metal is used to simulate aluminum on aircraft kits. It's actual metal.
I guess aluminium tape from a hardware store could be a cheaper alterative :
H.P.
I played around with aluminum tape a while back and found it's pretty useless in model building. The adhesive is very thick and soft so the aluminum surface will show tool marks, finger and handling marks and the aluminum itself is also too thick. Bare Metal Foil is thin enough to show underlying detail which is why you can use it to replace 'chrome' on parts like grills and emblems.
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