OK, guys & gals, I'm looking for help here.
But first, how I got in this fix ....
I had been rooting around in my books & things & found a picture or two of the 11th Hussars in the Western Desert. A little while later, a Squadron flyer showed up with the JMGT Rolls Royce Armoured Car as the pre-order of the month and that tripped the Pavlovian response to BUY IT. My brain was all excited & fogged & all that & I didn't even pay attention to the price.
When it showed, I was disheartened -- the cost and what I got, or better didn't get, for all those bucks !!!! Then it really got ugly -- I haven't come up with but a dozen pictures and most of them are of the 1915 pattern car, not the kit 1924 car -- so I have little to go by to work on this thing & fix it up.
Next, the kit. The good part is that there is a kit of this vehicle, and the outline & proportion seem to be about right. But there's a lot wrong:
-- the resin is way too thick
-- the vision ports are a bit heavy and do not match up on the inside & outside
-- the chassis is pretty bare -- no drive shaft, no steering gear, etc
-- no accessories, kit bags, boxes, etc, and no storage points
-- the hinges, hasps, and handles are pretty low detail
-- the turret ring doesn't fit into the cut-out on the body parts
Well, with this much money spent, I better finish it so SWMBO can see it !!!! Aside form that, I'm a "Brit buff" and especially love the North African campaign, so I gotta do this thing !!!
Right now, I'm working from a few very grainy small photos -- i.e., I'm winging it.
So, HELP #1 -- I need references !!!!
So, HELP #2 -- any advice on what I am doing, how I am doing it, or better what I can do to enhance this thing will be greatly appreciated.
OK, here we go -- there are more photos in the Rolls Royce Armoured Car Album. of My Gallery
Here is the kit box, just to give you a picture of the vehicle.
Here is the chassis -- not much to it. There is a big frame with an oil pan & such but little else, to which you attach a front piece, two front springs & a front axle, and two back springs & rear axle. There is a transmission lump with what appears to be a u-joint but no driveshaft supplied so I made one from another kit & Evergreen. There is no steering gear other than an arm on each side of the axle, so I've started one by building a tie-rod.
It looks to me that the front wheels may not have had brakes, I'm not sure, so my plan is to run brake lines to the rear wheels only. I think there are some other details I could add around the springs, especially in the front, but I don't have a clear picture of same.
OK, now to address the over thick resin in the driving & fighting compartments. I worked it out to about a scale 3 inches or so which is excessive even for a Rolls. I want to open the driving compartment doors, at least one of them, but don't plan to open the rear doors in the fighting compartment, at least not today -- could change tomorrow.
Also note that the turret ring is too big for the joined compartments, so the mark here shows what I have to chop out to make it all fit ...
That philosophy means I don't have to rebuild the whole car from Evergreen which was my original (sinking) thought. Much of the over-thickness won't be noticeable (well not too obvious). So I plan to fix up the drivers compartment & the turret itself.
Here is my stab at the driving compartment. I cut out the doors and then re-framed them with Evergreen angle & quarter-round. I'll make new doors from .030 Evergreen & add some decent vision-ports -- matching on both sides.
What I lack at this point is a clear view of what the doors look like, inside & out and I don't have much detail for inside the compartment, thinking mostly of hooks & knobs & things where I can add accessories.
The same problem exists with the fighting compartment -- ammo storage, exact weapon mountings, etc, etc.
OK, time for Rivet Reviewers to shine !!!!
And Thanks in Advance !!!
Constructive Feedback
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Hosted by Darren Baker, Dave O'Meara
Rolls-Royce Armoured Car
jRatz
North Carolina, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 02:56 PM UTC
Grumpyoldman
Consigliere
Florida, United States
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 04:12 PM UTC
John, that was the first model I ever scratch-built... :-) :-) 30 plus years ago. Started with an old Pyro 1/32 scale kit.... Unfortunately all the references were older, and now have long gone due to a flood.
But I'm glad you posted photos of the kit, so I know what it looks like.
Good Luck, and I'll be quitely following your progress.
Oh of course, after I finished mine.... Scale link released their's.... but it was fun back then to be asked if it was the scale link one..... :-) :-) :-)
But I'm glad you posted photos of the kit, so I know what it looks like.
Good Luck, and I'll be quitely following your progress.
Oh of course, after I finished mine.... Scale link released their's.... but it was fun back then to be asked if it was the scale link one..... :-) :-) :-)
MrRoo
Queensland, Australia
Joined: October 07, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 06:06 PM UTC
I have a feeling that the third one may be a Humber but I am not sure.
Hope these help with a challenging project
MrRoo
Queensland, Australia
Joined: October 07, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 06:46 PM UTC
John go to http://armorama.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=14298
I have added another 9 photos there for you. One or two could be Humbers.
These were nicknamed 'shellbacks' by the RAF personnel that used them in North Africa.
I have added another 9 photos there for you. One or two could be Humbers.
These were nicknamed 'shellbacks' by the RAF personnel that used them in North Africa.
DaveCox
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 05:57 AM UTC
Cliff, I think the 'Humbers' could be Marmon Herrington armoured cars, but I could be wrong.
John, I though about selling the house and buying one of the JGMT kits, as the RR or later Fordson armoured cars have always been a favourite - glad I didn't now!
Some of the WW2 cars were actually old RR bodies on a Fordson truck chassis and can usually be distinguished by the wheels, but the body was the same. In fact I think that the cars in two of Cliff's pics with the open rear beds and slotted wheels may be Fordson chassis cars.
John, I though about selling the house and buying one of the JGMT kits, as the RR or later Fordson armoured cars have always been a favourite - glad I didn't now!
Some of the WW2 cars were actually old RR bodies on a Fordson truck chassis and can usually be distinguished by the wheels, but the body was the same. In fact I think that the cars in two of Cliff's pics with the open rear beds and slotted wheels may be Fordson chassis cars.
mcdurd
Virginia, United States
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 06:29 AM UTC
I was also dissappointed with the kit. There isn't much out there. I even wrote JMGT because I though they had left out a page of instructions about the interior. Thier response was that they couldn't find any info so they left it to the modeller to decide!
Not many pictures around of the Frazier Nash variant. From the search that I did on the web the driver's compartment was pretty bare. i found squat on the turret so I'll be doing some "creative gizmology" and hope that a RR armored car veteran never looks closely at my model javascript:PasteSmiley(';)')
javascript:PasteSmiley(';)').
Chris
Not many pictures around of the Frazier Nash variant. From the search that I did on the web the driver's compartment was pretty bare. i found squat on the turret so I'll be doing some "creative gizmology" and hope that a RR armored car veteran never looks closely at my model javascript:PasteSmiley(';)')
javascript:PasteSmiley(';)').
Chris
Slug
Alberta, Canada
Joined: September 02, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 10:20 AM UTC
Hey John, this might help:
RR
RR
jRatz
North Carolina, United States
Joined: March 06, 2004
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Joined: March 06, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 03:04 PM UTC
Guys, thanks !!!
I posted 4 reference pix to my gallery, RRAC Album -- one matches 'Roo's pix. Here's one:
I don't have much to add today -- I was fiddling with my driver compartment hack & figured out the doors are hinged wrong -- JMGT has 'em hinged at the front, and pix show 'em hinged at the rear. Tomorrow I scape off hinges & look at building a rear door post for new hinges.
Roo, thanks for the pix -- even though the turret is different I think I can get some chassis detail from them.
Dave, thanks -- I'll research Fordson & see if that helps.
Bruce, thanks -- raided that site already.
Chris, good luck.
Come on, Grumps !! Surely you can remember it all !!! Was only 30 years ...
John, the hard-headed ...
I posted 4 reference pix to my gallery, RRAC Album -- one matches 'Roo's pix. Here's one:
I don't have much to add today -- I was fiddling with my driver compartment hack & figured out the doors are hinged wrong -- JMGT has 'em hinged at the front, and pix show 'em hinged at the rear. Tomorrow I scape off hinges & look at building a rear door post for new hinges.
Roo, thanks for the pix -- even though the turret is different I think I can get some chassis detail from them.
Dave, thanks -- I'll research Fordson & see if that helps.
Bruce, thanks -- raided that site already.
Chris, good luck.
Come on, Grumps !! Surely you can remember it all !!! Was only 30 years ...
John, the hard-headed ...
MrRoo
Queensland, Australia
Joined: October 07, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2005 - 06:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Come on, Grumps !! Surely you can remember it all !!! Was only 30 years ...
John, the hard-headed ...
John Grumpy old man is in Hospital having his bad leg seen too. Only heard about it last night myself.
Cliff
jRatz
North Carolina, United States
Joined: March 06, 2004
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Joined: March 06, 2004
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Posted: Friday, March 18, 2005 - 02:56 PM UTC
'Roo, you know if I weren't so darn busy right now, I'd have been better off to hack/scratch this thing back to a 1915-base with the lobsterback turret like in all your pix. I didn't want to do the work I am doing on this thing & I just can't put any more into it right now ....
jRatz
North Carolina, United States
Joined: March 06, 2004
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Joined: March 06, 2004
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Posted: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 02:07 PM UTC
OK Guyz:
Here we are about a month later.
I found more issues, I found things I had interpreted wrong earlier, my airbrush died a few days ago, and so on & so on ....
Here is what I have, which isn't quite complete, but I'd like critical comments on it, so when I pick it back up in a week or so, I can compare my notes to yours ....
I am fried on this thing right now ....
PS: These 2 pix are in my gallery & I'll go back & fill in the gaps on the construction side later.
John
Here we are about a month later.
I found more issues, I found things I had interpreted wrong earlier, my airbrush died a few days ago, and so on & so on ....
Here is what I have, which isn't quite complete, but I'd like critical comments on it, so when I pick it back up in a week or so, I can compare my notes to yours ....
I am fried on this thing right now ....
PS: These 2 pix are in my gallery & I'll go back & fill in the gaps on the construction side later.
John
MrRoo
Queensland, Australia
Joined: October 07, 2002
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Posted: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 02:35 PM UTC
John I like it and concidering the hassels you had with it you did a good job.
I think the brown color is far too dark. The sun in the desert would have faded this to a light fawn color real quick. Same with the tyres. These would have been light grey on the side walls and the color you have them on the treads.
Other then that mate good job well done
I think the brown color is far too dark. The sun in the desert would have faded this to a light fawn color real quick. Same with the tyres. These would have been light grey on the side walls and the color you have them on the treads.
Other then that mate good job well done
DaveCox
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 - 05:15 PM UTC
Other than the points Cliff has already picked up, you've made a pretty good 'silk purse' out of what first appeared to be a 'sow's ear'.
There are too many anomolies in the records concerning the colours used in the Caunter cammo schemes to start a discussion on it here, but I believe that officially the pale blue was actually a slate green colour,; but who knows what the desert sun etc would have done to it!
If I win the lottery I may just get one of these after all!
There are too many anomolies in the records concerning the colours used in the Caunter cammo schemes to start a discussion on it here, but I believe that officially the pale blue was actually a slate green colour,; but who knows what the desert sun etc would have done to it!
If I win the lottery I may just get one of these after all!
jRatz
North Carolina, United States
Joined: March 06, 2004
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Posted: Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 01:46 PM UTC
'Roo, Dave:
You are both correct on the colo(u)rs.
Caunter was Lt Stone, Slate, Silver Grey but there were variations. I had some mixing guidelines using Humbrol colors, but I'm using Tamiya acrylics & so could not get a 1:1 match. I'm not the kinda guy who can do fancy things with color mixing.
I'm fairly happy with 1st batch of Lt Stone, but 2nd batch (touchups) is off.
The Slate is brown-green, mine looked right at first but dried more brown & "darker" than I wanted.
The Silver Grey is semi-close, could be a bit lighter.
Part of issue is the photography, the colors aren't coming thru well at all. One is too dark & the one with green background really distorted things.
You are both correct about the fading -- that is yet to be done. When the airbrush died, I was pretty well screwed. I have to try again on my colors, try to respray parts of it, and then actually do my normal pastel weathering.
Thanks for input !!!!
John
You are both correct on the colo(u)rs.
Caunter was Lt Stone, Slate, Silver Grey but there were variations. I had some mixing guidelines using Humbrol colors, but I'm using Tamiya acrylics & so could not get a 1:1 match. I'm not the kinda guy who can do fancy things with color mixing.
I'm fairly happy with 1st batch of Lt Stone, but 2nd batch (touchups) is off.
The Slate is brown-green, mine looked right at first but dried more brown & "darker" than I wanted.
The Silver Grey is semi-close, could be a bit lighter.
Part of issue is the photography, the colors aren't coming thru well at all. One is too dark & the one with green background really distorted things.
You are both correct about the fading -- that is yet to be done. When the airbrush died, I was pretty well screwed. I have to try again on my colors, try to respray parts of it, and then actually do my normal pastel weathering.
Thanks for input !!!!
John
Mars_Volta
Quebec, Canada
Joined: March 28, 2005
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Posted: Thursday, April 14, 2005 - 02:30 PM UTC
This is a rare model I think, but your rendered it well!
I just want to know one thing. What's the big barel next to the Bren MG? A smoke discharger?
Roll's Royce makes nice (armoured) car!
I just want to know one thing. What's the big barel next to the Bren MG? A smoke discharger?
Roll's Royce makes nice (armoured) car!
jRatz
North Carolina, United States
Joined: March 06, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, April 16, 2005 - 01:51 PM UTC
Phillipe:
Yes, that is a smoke discharger. The kit provided a big barrel (nicely hollowed out on the big end) with an ugly little stub on the littel end. I cut a trigger housing off a Boys ATR & turned it into (what I consider) a proper smoke discharger.
John
Yes, that is a smoke discharger. The kit provided a big barrel (nicely hollowed out on the big end) with an ugly little stub on the littel end. I cut a trigger housing off a Boys ATR & turned it into (what I consider) a proper smoke discharger.
John
jRatz
North Carolina, United States
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Posted: Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 12:40 PM UTC
OK Guyz:
You last saw this in April and since then it has been half tore down & rebuilt. I also remixed the colours and believe I got a lot closer to the Caunter Scheme than before.
The only thing missing is the crew & they are almost done, but since this isn't Crew-a-rama I won't worry about them.
For no good reason, I did a complete undercarriage -- mechanical brake linkage, drive train, steergear, fuel line & air pressurization line, etc.
And here are two of the overall views.
I have spent about 5 months of my life on this thing, so the $150 kit cost works out pretty cheap on a per-hour basis. Now maybe I can get back to all the projects I put aside for this one.
Thanks for all the helpful comments earlier ....
John
You last saw this in April and since then it has been half tore down & rebuilt. I also remixed the colours and believe I got a lot closer to the Caunter Scheme than before.
The only thing missing is the crew & they are almost done, but since this isn't Crew-a-rama I won't worry about them.
For no good reason, I did a complete undercarriage -- mechanical brake linkage, drive train, steergear, fuel line & air pressurization line, etc.
And here are two of the overall views.
I have spent about 5 months of my life on this thing, so the $150 kit cost works out pretty cheap on a per-hour basis. Now maybe I can get back to all the projects I put aside for this one.
Thanks for all the helpful comments earlier ....
John
MrRoo
Queensland, Australia
Joined: October 07, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 01:40 PM UTC
for all the hassles you had with this thing in the first place you have done a remarkable and excellent job of finishing her.
congrats John
cheers
Cliff
congrats John
cheers
Cliff
DaveCox
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: January 11, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 05:15 PM UTC
John, congrats on a really nice job. Considering the problems with the kit, and the lack of references, a really neat job. Be proud man, be very proud!
Nailcreek
Wisconsin, United States
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Posted: Monday, December 26, 2005 - 01:28 AM UTC
Hi ... I hope that the model came out OK, all things told!
First off ... you can't convert the 1924 Pattern Car to a 1920 Pattern. They are completely different vehicles from the chassis up.
Secondly, the 11th Hussars used the 1924 Pattern cars with the open topped Frazer-Nash turret, not the RAF. I can say pretty confidently that the 1924 bodies were either scrapped or lost to action, and never transferred to another chassis. The RAF never officially used the 1924 Pattern in any version.
Thirdly, I have never seen a photo of the FN turret from behind to confirm the shape. I know of only three photos, and none are from the rear. I've checked with the 11th Hussars web group, Frazer-Nash enthusiast's group, the Tank Museum, etc ... and no such luck.
If you are interested in some RAF Armoured Car Company photos ... go to ...
http://groups.msn.com/RAFArmdCarCompanies
First off ... you can't convert the 1924 Pattern Car to a 1920 Pattern. They are completely different vehicles from the chassis up.
Secondly, the 11th Hussars used the 1924 Pattern cars with the open topped Frazer-Nash turret, not the RAF. I can say pretty confidently that the 1924 bodies were either scrapped or lost to action, and never transferred to another chassis. The RAF never officially used the 1924 Pattern in any version.
Thirdly, I have never seen a photo of the FN turret from behind to confirm the shape. I know of only three photos, and none are from the rear. I've checked with the 11th Hussars web group, Frazer-Nash enthusiast's group, the Tank Museum, etc ... and no such luck.
If you are interested in some RAF Armoured Car Company photos ... go to ...
http://groups.msn.com/RAFArmdCarCompanies
jRatz
North Carolina, United States
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Joined: March 06, 2004
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Posted: Friday, December 30, 2005 - 07:31 AM UTC
nailcreek (a real name would be nice):
Thanks for posting link to your site -- great pictures !!!
Not sure what info your comments about RAF RRAC are meant to provide -- my build wasn't RAF, but rather 11th Hussars.
I fully agree that pix of the F-N turret cars are next to non-existant .... I had to use "BMJ" (best modeling judgement) on the thing ....
John
Thanks for posting link to your site -- great pictures !!!
Not sure what info your comments about RAF RRAC are meant to provide -- my build wasn't RAF, but rather 11th Hussars.
I fully agree that pix of the F-N turret cars are next to non-existant .... I had to use "BMJ" (best modeling judgement) on the thing ....
John
Nailcreek
Wisconsin, United States
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Posted: Friday, December 30, 2005 - 07:59 AM UTC
Hi ... the name's Kerry Brunner. My comments were really to try and answer some of the things I read in the thread and hopefully clear up the misnomers.
Nice job on the 11th Hussars vehicle. Looks great!
Now, if only someone would make a 1914 and 1920 Pattern in injection molded plastic! The fun I would have and the money I would spend ...
Nice job on the 11th Hussars vehicle. Looks great!
Now, if only someone would make a 1914 and 1920 Pattern in injection molded plastic! The fun I would have and the money I would spend ...
Posted: Friday, December 30, 2005 - 05:39 PM UTC
Lovely job!
I'm dead keen to build one of these but I'll probably have to try and scratch one. They're as scarce as hens' teeth.
I'm dead keen to build one of these but I'll probably have to try and scratch one. They're as scarce as hens' teeth.
jRatz
North Carolina, United States
Joined: March 06, 2004
KitMaker: 1,171 posts
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Joined: March 06, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 08:18 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Lovely job!
I'm dead keen to build one of these but I'll probably have to try and scratch one. They're as scarce as hens' teeth.
Allow me to recommend scratchbuilding -- at $200USD or so, they are not worth the money ... I only put the work in & finished it because I got angry and took it on as a personal challenge ... never again ...
John
jRatz
North Carolina, United States
Joined: March 06, 2004
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Joined: March 06, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 08:21 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Now, if only someone would make a 1914 and 1920 Pattern in injection molded plastic! The fun I would have and the money I would spend ...
Kerry, yes on wanting inject kits ...
I've been watching Resicast to see when they get their resin version off the futures list ... chassis looks great ... wish they'd start selling that stand alone ...
John