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Armor/AFV: Canadian Armor
Discuss all types of Canadian Armor of all eras.
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Canadian M3?
peacekeeper
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 05:47 AM UTC
Did the Canadian army use the M3 Stuart/Honey during WW2? If so, which units were equipped with it?

rfeehan
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 06:18 AM UTC
Hmm good question my book is at home but it shows M3A3s as assigned to Canadian Armoured Divisions. (that's from memory). I will look when I get home.

I have seen some photos of M3s converted to recces also in Canadian service.

Davester444
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 06:22 AM UTC
Check out this page:

http://www.geocities.com/nasenoviny/StuartEN.html

Here's a quote from it:


Quoted Text

The Canadian Army employed the Stuart chassis in a role similar to the T8 Reconnaissance Vehicle, removing the turret and creating a makeshift armoured personnel carrier. This was called Stuart Kangaroo.
thebear
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 06:44 AM UTC
Well this might not be exactly what you are looking for but the only one I found was used for training in England ...
http://www.armouredacorn.com/Reference/CVM/CVMs/CVM%20Part%2026b%20(UK%20Training).pdf

Rick
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 08:03 AM UTC
Looks like at least the Crazy 8s used them, hopefully the Garrys, Straths or Dragons used them too
cdnkit
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 01:04 PM UTC
The canadian army used M3A3 (designated Stuart V) in recce regiments during european campaign from Italy through Germany. They also used a M3A3 turretless version at the same time.
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 05:26 PM UTC
In the Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) the M3A3s used in Italy were all turretless.

Once the Regiment moved from Italy to Northwest Europe in '45 most of the turretless M3A3s were exchanged for turreted M5A1s. Some turretless M3A3 "Honeys" were retained as re-supply vehicles for the Recce M5A1s.

If there were any Canadian turreted M3A3s in service it would be very cool to see some images.

tankmodeler
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Posted: Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 04:50 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Check out this page:

http://www.geocities.com/nasenoviny/StuartEN.html

Here's a quote from it:


Quoted Text

The Canadian Army employed the Stuart chassis in a role similar to the T8 Reconnaissance Vehicle, removing the turret and creating a makeshift armoured personnel carrier. This was called Stuart Kangaroo.

Unfortunately that quote has things somewhat out of synch. The Commonwealth forces _invented_ the Stuart reconnaissance concept. The US Army tried to standardise it but never took it on in any meaningful way. The reconnaissance versions were known as Stuart Recces not Kangaroos. Kangaroo vehicles (be they Priests, Rams, Shermans or Stuarts) were APCs by trade and not recce vehicles.

As to what Stuarts did we use? We used them all except the M5. Even had some of the first M2A4s in Commonwealth service (didn't even have the name Stuart on them at that point). We used M2A4s, M3s, M3A1, M3A3s (LOTS) and M5A1s (also lots). Every armoured regiment had some in the recce troop (both with and without turrets). A goodly number found their way into other units as well. Infantry units had them for ammo resupply and armoured ambulance vehicles (sans turret) . Some arty units used them as FOO vehicles and some were used as unit commander vehicles.

There were lots of them to go around and we used them in an awful lot of roles.

Which were you thinking of modelling?

Paul
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Posted: Friday, July 08, 2005 - 12:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Which were you thinking of modelling?

Paul


I was thinking of something with 1st Div either in Sicily/Italy or NW Europe.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Friday, July 08, 2005 - 04:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I was thinking of something with 1st Div either in Sicily/Italy or NW Europe.

Ok, well, you probably wouldn't find any in 1 Div in Sicily as they weren't on the Infantry division war establishments. Later in the campaign it would be more likely to find some in the line regiments or the arty. These would be turretless and either M3A1s or M3A3s. As the armoured recce regiments had first call on the better M3A3s, I would suspect that the Inf Divs would have to settle for older M3s and M3A1s (mind you, finders keepers if anything useful was left along the side of the road). I'll see if I have any info on specific vehicles used by 1 Div units, but I think most of my stuff has hard info on Arm'd units using Stuarts.

Sure you don't want to do a 5th Arm'd Div vehicle in Italy? Or a 1st Cdn Armoured Brigade vehicle? Markings for Stuarts in those units, I got.

Let me know,

Paul
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Posted: Friday, July 08, 2005 - 05:17 AM UTC
Here's a DND photo ( on page 351 from Vol 8, The War that United a Province, Alberta in the 20th Century): SAR Sherman and Stuart near Veen (Netherlands) March 1945. I've always wanted to make this into a dio, but it's hard to tell if that's an M5 or M3A3-at least to me . I suppose I should get the SAR book, I'm sure it would have more photos, seems like they might have used more M5's this late in the War?


Cheers,
Jim
tankmodeler
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Posted: Friday, July 08, 2005 - 07:17 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I've always wanted to make this into a dio, but it's hard to tell if that's an M5 or M3A3?

I think it's an M5A1. The plate type object hung on the tank's left side seems to hang vertically as opposed to leaned in at the top and I think I can see a light spot corresponding to the raised portion of the engine deck, through the foliage at the arse end of the vehicle.


Quoted Text

I suppose I should get the SAR book

Yes, you should! :-)


Quoted Text

seems like they might have used more M5's this late in the War?

Correct, although a few M3A3s were still to be found right up 'till the end. Still the vast majority around the time of Holland, should have been M5A1s. The maintenance hassle of running two different enges would have been a major headache if both types continued in the same regiment. It was done, but avoided if at all possible.

Photos in the SAR book show an almost complete change-over to the M5A1 in the SAR by Holland. I say "almost complete" because you never can tell what was hidden in the HQ troops or held by the ambulance and ammo carrying parties.

Paul
LeoCmdr
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Posted: Friday, July 08, 2005 - 12:03 PM UTC
I agree that the Stuart in the photo is an M5A1.

The Strathconas like the SAR also turned in the majority of their M3s upon arrival to NW Europe,(they only used the turretless M3 in Italy), they were also issued the winter crew suits and traded in the Tommy guns for the Sten guns.

I have spoken in the past with LdSH(RC) veterans at the Museum and I have hunted through the Strathcona archive photos.

They said that the turretless Stuarts were retained by the Recce Troop A echelon for supply vehicles upon arrival to NW Europe.

Whichever model and version you chose I am sure you can get lots of references and insight around here.

Here's a photo from the LdSH(RC) archives of a turretless M3? in Holland...nice clogs the civilians are wearing.



ChrisJohnson
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Posted: Monday, July 11, 2005 - 03:25 AM UTC
This is a little off topic but that photo from the SAR book is actually a BCR Sherman. If you have the book, look closely at the AoS sign and you'll see it's a "53" rather than the SAR's "45".

The really interesting thing about the photo, to me at least, is the camouflage white paint on the underside of the 75 mm gun barrel. That's something usually reserved for the 17-pdrs.

Cheers,

Chris
thebear
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Posted: Monday, July 11, 2005 - 06:11 AM UTC
Okay guys I got a question for you ...Now if I want to build a Canadian M3A3 with a turret on it in Italy ,can I do it and what would the markings be?

Rick
tankmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 04:40 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Now if I want to build a Canadian M3A3 with a turret on it in Italy ,can I do it and what would the markings be?Rick


Yes, you can do it.
The Goo Goo Hoo Goos (Gov Gnrl Horse Grds) used them for 3 months just before going into combat, Jan-March 1943. Tac sign would be Recce 45 on a green over blue square . Formation sign would be 5 Div's gold maple leaf on a maroon square.

Canada's Stuart V WD numbers would be in the ranges of T231159-231262 and T236262-236302

Other regiments in 5 div should also have had some M3A3s with turrets, at least for a while, in their recce troops. You can find markings for them at:
http://www.armouredacorn.com/Reference/CAM/5CAD.pdf

The regiments of the 1st Cdn Armoured Regiment would also probably have Stuart Vs in their war establishment, especially as they had been "in country" since the landings in Sicily. The Stuart Vs were an integral part of their recce troops and their markings are shown here:
http://www.armouredacorn.com/Reference/CAM/ArmyTk-Armd%20Bdes.pdf

Hope this helps

Paul
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 05:19 PM UTC
[quoteThe Goo Goo Hoo Goos (Gov Gnrl Horse Grds) [/quote]

A Three Rivers vet told me the GGHG were usually nicknamed "God's Gift to Homely Girls"!! - just a useless bit of information........... :-)
thebear
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Posted: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 11:47 PM UTC
Thanks for the info Paul.... and Dave too... :-)
I'm sure it'll help out my friend a lot.

Rick

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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 12:51 AM UTC
Thanks for all the info guys, but I have one final stupid question.

What is the difference between an M3 and an M5? They look like the same vehicle to my untrained eye.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 06:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What is the difference between an M3 and an M5? They look like the same vehicle to my untrained eye.

The fundimental difference was the engines. The M3 series (m3, M3A1, M3A3) had a radial gasoline engine. The M5 series (M5, M5A1 and M8) had a pair of Cadillac gas engines and a hydromatic transmission.

The M3s and M3A1s look a lot alike. This is an M3A1:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/guatemala/Gua-M3A1.jpg
The M3 A3 had a redesigned hull featuring sloping suides and a new turret with the radio in the bustle, comme sa:
http://hsfeatures.com/m3a3sp_1.htm
The M5 series had a new hull with a raised area on the engine deck to accomodate the new engines:
http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/can/Can-M5A1-Stuart.jpg
Notice that the turret of rhe M5A1 is essentially the same as the M3A1. The slightly earlier M5 had the same turret as the M3A1.

The M8 howitzer had the same engine arrangement as the M5 series but the hull was modified to include a larger turret ring for the crew to serve the 75mm pack howitzer which caused the driver's hatches to be moved to the front glasis plate.

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/self_propelled_guns/m8_howitzer_motor_carriage.html

"Stuarts 101" is now concluded. This will all be on the exam...

Paul
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 09:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

["Stuarts 101" is now concluded. This will all be on the exam...

Paul


Thanks Paul, you've totally answered my questions (asked and unasked). I guess I'll be going with an M3 (turreted, GGHG) from 5 Div in Italy.

BTW, can I get an exemption from the test on the grounds of stupidity?
thebear
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Posted: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 09:20 AM UTC
Dave if I undestood correctly the GGHG had M3A3's and not M3s

Rick
tankmodeler
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Posted: Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 05:46 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Dave if I undestood correctly the GGHG had M3A3's and not M3s

A) Yep.


Quoted Text

BTW, can I get an exemption from the test on the grounds of stupidity?

Nope, sorry. Didn't work for me in school,don't see why you should be special. :-)

Really, if you have any other questions, ask anything you want.

Paul
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