I just picked up this kit and I would like to know how close this is to Centurions in Canadian service. I got a ride in one when I was a kid when I visited Camp Sarcee here in Calgary in the 60's. My dad was in the army then and I was hoping to model one of those. How much conversion would I have to do? Any pics? What about markings? I think they were Lord Strathcona Horse but I'm not sure.

thanks
Bob

It would have been a Strathcona Centurion Mk.5 you had your ride in.

Can you narrow it to a specific year? The tanks went through a series of modifications and it would help to narrow it down.

The conversion wouldn't be too much work at all. But I could help you out even more if I knew the year.

The biggest thing would be changing the barrel from a Type B to a Type A.

Let me know what you can remember.

Let's see, I was about 7 or 8 years old so we are talking 1963-64 here? I joined cadets in 1966 when I was 10 so it was defiinitely before then. There was a 'Military Days' show or something like that when a mock attack was staged with Centurions rolling past the crowd and firing off blanks - made quite a boom I remember. Another clear memory was the mortar teams setting up and lobbing dummy shells. I can still remember watching the mortar rounds arcing overhead - you could see the little black shapes. That's as close as I can narrow down the time, does that help?

Did we only have the Mk 5's or did we have Mk 3's or Mk 11's too? I'm not stuck on modelling that particular tank from my childhood, but other Canadian Centurions as well.

Many thanks
Bob

If yuo want to do the ultimate job aon a Canadian Cent, you gotta buy Barry Beldam's book, CanadianCenturion Gun tanks from Quatermasters Depot. $45 gets you a lot of images from the various manuals and a visit to the Armoured Acorn site will get you all the accurate paint schemes you could imagine.

http://www.quartermastersdepot.com

[url=http://www.armouredacorn.com[/url]

HTH

Paul

Ok, '63 or '64, I think I can help you.

First, Canada used for only a very short period the Mk.3 in the early '50's..ithey were very quickly converted to the Mk.5.

Canada used both the Mk.5 and Mk.11. The Mk.5 was used both in Canada and Germany. The Mk.11 was used only operationally in Germany...the ones in Canada were for training purposes only.

A Strathcona Centurion in '63 or '64 would have been a plain Mk.5. So for the AFV Club kit you have to:
- leave off the 100 gallon rear fuel tank
-change the Type B barrel to a Type A barrel
-leave off the additional armour plate on the glacis plate
-add the driver's wind screen cover to the left side of the glacis plate...I think this is included in the kit but not used for the Australian version.
-add spare track links to the right side of the glacis plate
-add the original night driving lights to the centre of the glacis plate
-you can leave off the side skirts as they were never usually mounted during training
-jerry can/jerry can rack and wire reel fitted to the turret rear.
-leave off the add-on turret basket and searchlight
-leave off the Commander's .30 Cal machine gun
-add a canvas mantlet cover to the mantlet.

Markings were as far as I can tell:
-The yellow and red unit symbol with the number 2 would have been on the left front fender or on the upper left glacis plate and on the rear hull on the tank telephone box.
-A formation marking of a yellow maple leaf on a red square on the upper right glacis plate or on the right front fender and the right side of the rear hull
-Squadron markings consisted of triangles (A Squadron), squares (B Squadron), or circles (C Squadron). They were yellow in colour. They were painted on either ends of the turret stowage bins and a larger one on the centre side skirt if they were fitted.
-The tank name would have been been of the front angle of the turret stowage bins
-the registration number would have been on the top of the lower angled portion of the glacis plate, the side hull stowage bins in the middle, and the hull rear in the middle
-sometimes the callsign was painted in white on the turret rear mounted jerry can
-Yellow circle with black numbered 56 bridge class sign on lower glacis plate either on the right side of the upper middle.


The LdSH(RC) Centurions in '63-'64 in Calgary were still painted in the overall dark green colour. This colour faded with age, weather, and normal wear and tear. You will have experiment with a colour you are happy with...something a little lighter than a dark bronze green would probably be pretty good.

I hope this helps you. If you need more info or furhter explanations just ask.

Wow....thanks very much indeed to the both of you, that's exactly the information I was looking for.

I have access to a Mk 3 here in Calgary at the Museum of The Regiments. It's on display (Pic's can be found on Prime Portal of it). It was the gate guard at CFB / Camp Sarcee for many years and now resides at the museum. I've crawled all over that tank every since I was a kid and was there just a week ago with my children and they did the very same thing. I guess it is possible to feel warm and fuzzy about a tank.

thanks again friends.....

Bob,
No problem. Once a Strathcona, always a Strathcona. A little first hand knowledge of Regimental history and equipment goes a long way.

The Centurion at the Museum is actually a Mk.5. That is the configuration of the Strathcona Centurions in the early 60's.

You should come out to a meeting with the Calgary AFV Modellers at the Small Soldier in south Calgary and we can talk about Centurions. We have it informally every second Saturday of the month.

Thanks for that info too, Jason. I'm building mine as a plain ole' Mk.5 as well, with the Mouse House Type B barrel. I used the mantlet with the one co-ax mount (.30 cal?), not the suggested 30/50 set-up. Any suggestions where to get markings? Hope to get it done for the Fall show, but I've got, what, 3 things I still need to finish for then?!! And it's August already! We'll see...

Cheers ,
Jim

Jason,

Your more than a brother modeller, your a brother in arms as I served in the 17/21st Lancers and the Lord Strathconas Horse were our affilliated sister regiment. So its nice to meet you on the site.

Death or Glory,

John

Bob., Your in good hands if Jason and Paul already replied so I can't add anything useful other than to say that book is worth every penny. If you can afford it grab a copy you won't be sorry.

My best man was in the Strathcona's in the mid 80s until he was discharged due to medical issues and he still lives in Calgary. I didn't realize you were in Calgary Jason if i make it out there anytime soon to visit him I should track you down and buy you a cup/glass of your favorite beverage.

Bob you aren't by chance the Bob Read that worked with me in the late 80s and 90s at Maritime Electric are you?

Rob

Hi Rob;
No, different guy I'm afraid. There aren't many of us spell my last name the way I do. Every other combination is more common than mine.... I've had outright argumnets with people over the spelling. They'll say things like... "that's not how you spell Reid'" or Reed or Reede or whatever... laugh I almost cry....

Anyway, thanks to all for your help, I really appreciate it. I'll try and pick up Beldam's book....I'm scouring the LHS's for it right now and if I can't find it there, I'll go online.

By the way Paul.....any hint as to where the easter eggs are on the armoured acorn site???

and Jason, the prime portal site calls the Museum of the Regiments' centurion a Mk III....maybe you could drop 'em a line and let Prime Portal know?........ cheers !!

Jim,
For markings have you checked out the offerings from Archer? The WW II Squadron markings might be helpful to you. There were also some Canadian Centurion markings, names, serial numbers, squadron markings, included in the Modelcraft Centruion kit. I am still slugging away at my M109A4+...too much other fun stuff to do in the summer.

John,
Always excellent to hear from a Death or Glory Lancer. I was a gunner and a driver for a couple of exchange Officers we had in the Regiment...Harding-Rolls and Garforth-Bless. I visited the 17/21st in Tidsworth after the Gulf War in 1991...we were there to examine some captured Iraqi armour. I managed to get some turret time in a Cheiftain Mk.11 while I was there and was treated to a great Challenger 1 live fire demo. I received nothing but excellent hospitality...PERSEVERENCE.

Rob,
If you are in Calgary don't hesitate to get in touch.

Bob,
I'll give Prime Portal a shout to change the Mk.

Jason,

That was long after my time, but glad to know that you found the Regt a friendly place. The modern vehicles with lasers and Fire control computers were things that dreams were made of in my day. I was a proper gunner using the .50 ranging machine gun and the mark one eyeball to aim the main gun. My Squadron 2ic was Capt Hugg from the Lord Strathconas. Nice memories.

John

John,

Nothing wrong with good old fashioned Mk.1 eye ball gunnery..those kids nowadays don't know how easy they have it with all that technology.

A true Crew Commander is one that can command a tank, accurately estimate ranges, identify targets, read a map, listen to two radios, and at the same time have a coffee in one hand and a ham sandwich in the other.

Capt. Hug, who served on an exchange with the 17/21st from 1978-1980, later became Colonel Hug, the Commanding Officer of the Strathconas, from 1991-1993.

Hey,

Just reading this thread, my first posting when I was in the military was 1 Bde and have a soft spot for the Strats. I primarily model figures and just completed this year a Sgt Strathcona's Horse Boer War and currently laying down the notes and planning for WWI Strat, I have a great book called "Always a Stratthcona" great reference, Ron Voldstadt has a great print on a mounted WWI Start as well. Didnt mean to go off topic just an interesting converstation,

To put us back on topic I plan to get the AFV Club Centurian as well and use your comments to build it. I copied and pasted the notes into Word for future reference.

Cheers

Ray

Ray,

Very nice to hear about your Boer War figure. I am glad I can help out with details for your project.

I have already built a Canadian Mk.11LR and plan to do another Mk.11LR as they looked in the early '70s in Germany.

I think I still have a few 1 CMBG Ram's Head patches laying around.

Hello guys,

Since it seems you guys have the same interest in Canadian Centurions as I do I have posted some images of Canadian Mk.5 Centurions.

I hope these help you with your projects.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/169232/message/1154577141/Canadian+Centurion+Pics

Hey Jason,

Again off topic but thought you may be interested in a lynx a friend on mine did, Strathcona's in Cyprus. He used an academy M113 as a base and built it into a lynx Cyprus 1974. Here's the link

http://www.track-link.net/gallery/4480

Its a real good job.

Cheers

Ray

When I was with 1 CER (79-81) we trained with the Strathcona's in Wainwright. They were a great bunch.

Darryl

Hi Jason - thanks for the pics, they'll help my project a lot. I'm also toying with the idea of building the Mk 5 kit into a Mk 11 instead (I didn't even know there was a Mk 11 until I started this thread....), anyway... what modifications to the kit to make a Mk 11? Anyone have any pics of a Canadian Mk 11?

thanks again all.....
Bob

Ray,
Yup, I saw the Lynx when Mark posted it on Missing Lynx...very nicely done.

Darryl,
I always like working with 1 CER...lots of big toys to dig and blow things up....after your time, but I loved watching the Badger AEVs breaching anti-tank ditches.

Bob,
The Canadian Mk.11s were the Mk.11LR(Long Range). They had a few additions and changes from the Mk.5.

-the add on 100 gallon fuel tank-as included in the AFV Club kit

-rear turret basket added-as included in the AFV Club kit

-searchlight added-as included in the AFV Club kit

-additional armour on the glacis plate-as included in the AFV Club kit

-different headlight, IR light, mounts, brackets, and covers on the glacis plate- the light and brackets are actually included in the kit but the wire mesh cover is not.

-searchlight mounting rail added to the mantlet

-.50 Cal ranging gun added, this required the new aperature to be added to the mantlet of the Mk.5

-Spare track links moved to the centre of the glacis plate

-driver's windscreen bin moved from glacis plate to the upper left hull-it is included in the kit

-M113 style machine gun mount for a .50 Cal mounted on the Commander cupola ring

-depending on the year, either the regular tracks(up to 1970) or the hush puppy style tracks(1970 and after)

-depending on the year, either the British style antenna mounts(up to 1967) or the U.S. style antenna mounts(1967 and after)

-105 mm main gun with barrel jacket(up to 1970) or without(1970 and after...the jackets were removed due to the excessive wear and tear)

-two spare road wheels were usually carried on bolt mounts installed on the turret top behind the Loader's hatch and on the 100 gallon fuel tank.

-the Mk.11LRs were either painted in the four colour cam pattern(up to 1970) or the three colour cam(1970 and after).

I have built a Canadian Mk.11LR from the Accurate Armour kit. My article will hopefully be coming out in an upcoming issue of AFV Modeller magazine.

Thanks Jason - what about a after market source for the 105mm barrel? I looked at the Barrel Store site and the don't seem to have one. I found an L7 105 barrel on the Accurate Armour site - I assume that's the one. What about the thermal blanket, is that correct for the Canadian type? I guess if I build a Mark 5, then the 'A' type 20 pdr barrel from Accurate Armour would be the one because the kit one would be the 'B' type barrel, right? Also, I can't seem to find references to the hush puppy tracks...I'm assuming they're a rubber padded type but where could I get some aftermarket sets of those?

thanks again
Bob

Accurate Armour has both the A and B Type 20 pounders as well as the L7 105 mm with and without the barrel jackets.

Canadian Centurion Mk.5s used both the A and B type barrel. So if you are not trying to build a specific tank you can use the kit Type B barrel. I have seen the Type B barrel on Canadian Centurions without any counter weights(metal strips added to the top of the fume extractor like in the kit) and with just one counter weight added to the top centre of the fume extractor....your choice. Most B Types don't have the counter weight.

Barrel Depot also makes a metal Type A barrel.

Model Point also makes a plain L7 without the barrel jacket.

The barrel jackets were used on the 105 mm on the Canadian Mk.11 until 1970. The Canadian Mk.11 LR Centurions in Germany went through a rebuild in 1970 and the barrel jackets were discarded.

Accurate Armour also makes the Hush Puppy tracks. Just a reminder they were only used from 1970 and after...mainly in Germany.

Thanks Jason - I've decided on building a Canadian mk11 so I've ordered an L7 barrel with he jacket from Accurate Armour. I'm not sure about adding the bazooka plates/side shields. I think it's a very cool feature of the Centurion and IMHO it doesn't really look like a Centurion unless it has the side skirts - I'm funny that way. I'll probably pick up a PE aftermarket set as well.

I've got Beldam's book on order from Uncle Bill's and he thinks he'll have some in early next week. I'm assuming that will give me some references for the IR lamp and headlight arrangement. If you want to PM me, I'd sure like to have a few pics of your mk11 as reference?

Cheers to the LdSH and thanks again....
Bob

Bob,

I would recommend that you contact Accurate Armour to purchase their photo etch fret from their Centurion Mk.11 kit. This contains a bunch of details parts and also the mesh to cover the headlight. They will sell it to you out of their kit. They also sell the Centurion side skirts. I think all of the Mk.11s I have seen have mounted side skirts.

Just one other thing. If you are building a Mk.11 in the later three colour camouflage you can still use the original tracks. Although the hush puppy tracks were eventually used on the tanks in Germany it took a bit of time to change them over and there were still many Mk.11s with the original track for some time.

You could also wait and build your current kit as a Mk.5. It is likely that AFV Club will release a Mk.11 in the future given the extra unused parts in the kit.