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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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Abrams or Panther ?
Hot-wheels
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Ohio, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 12:50 AM UTC
Hi guys

I've seen some references to the US's M1 series of tanks called a "Panther" rather than the "Abrams" . Has there been a name change, or is there just another version ?

Calling one of our tanks a Panther along with the adotions of the Fritz style of helmits. Add to this George W's unwillness to listen to anyone's advice, { i.e. Hitler circa 44, 45 } I'm getting a bit nervious.
Harry
chefchris
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 12:52 AM UTC
I think the Panther is based on the M1 chassis - not the M1A1.

Chris
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 12:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think the Panther is based on the M1 chassis - not the M1A1.

Chris



More info HERE

Frenchy
chefchris
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 01:22 AM UTC
Frenchy - On the spot as usual......
I would have thought we would have more of them than that!

Interesting,
Chris
troubble27
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 01:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Calling one of our tanks a Panther along with the adotions of the Fritz style of helmits. Add to this George W's unwillness to listen to anyone's advice, { i.e. Hitler circa 44, 45 } I'm getting a bit nervious.
Harry





Harry, youre only getting nervous now mein comaraden??
Hot-wheels
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Ohio, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 02:21 AM UTC
Hi guys

So let me see if I got this, The Panther II is a unmanned robotic version of the M1 used for clearing mine fields. Why not adopt them for use in Irag for use against I.E.Ds, and other ambush style weapons. example, running point on convoys.

Gary - I've been nervious ever since George W was elected the first time. That man scares the bagebess out of me!
Harry
Sabot
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 03:33 AM UTC
It is an engineer vehicle and the Corps of Engineers is trying to use North American mammal names like Panther (aka cougar, mountain lion), Grizzly and Wolverine for US engineer vhicles.

Unlike Hitler, a president ends his service after one or two four year terms.
chefchris
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 03:36 AM UTC
They no longer produce Abrams hulls - so I guess they used older M1 hulls sans turrets and beefed up the hull(?).

The Panther II CAN be driven by a Human as well as remotely.

As far as combat usage........ I know they deployed one or two to Kosovo, but none so far to Afghanistan or Iraq. I am sure they have issues with mines in Iraq (A-stan is loaded with them!)but the bigger culprits are IED/EFP s.

I know the Marines use the Buffalo MRV to deal with the IEDs - seems to be a pretty successful vehicle; just don't know how many there are on duty.

There is another Mineexpolder utilizing a flail system that the US uses (forget the name of the top of my cranium....... It basically looks like a huge commercial loader with the flail unit at the front and cab/engine in back. They can go down I think to around 16" into the ground.

Personally I like the Stryker "skates" that just go along the road throwing sparks and debris everywhere...........

Chris
Frenchy
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 04:47 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As far as combat usage........ I know they deployed one or two to Kosovo, but none so far to Afghanistan or Iraq.



Er.....At least there was one Panther II (belonging to the 9th Engineer Battalion) in Iraq in 2004 :
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2004/0411-panther.htm

Some pics on Primeportal (I don't know for sure if it's the one mentioned in the article..)
http://www.primeportal.net/apc/russ/iraq_m1_panther2.htm

Frenchy
Fledermaus
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 05:11 AM UTC
Harry,

I think you made a mistake. This is a model building website. I think you meant to post your political comments here:
http://www.dailykos.com/

Happy modelling
AikinutNY
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 05:15 AM UTC


Calling one of our tanks a Panther along with the addition of the Fritz style of helmets. Add to this George W's unwillness to listen to anyone's advice, { i.e. Hitler circa 44, 45 } I'm getting a bit nervious.
Harry[/quote]
Harry, the "Fritz" helmet was adopted in 1977-78, Jimmy Carter was the President, I believe. The helmet was designed to give the maximum amout of protection, they have since added a plate to cover the back of the neck. It weighs a little more than the old steel pot, but sits lower and "feels" lighter. The kevlar material gives a lot more protection than steel.
tankmodeler
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 05:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Why not adopt them for use in Irag for use against I.E.Ds, and other ambush style weapons. example, running point on convoys.


Like other mine clearing devices the Panther, the various Flail designs and the MCLCs (Mine CLearing Line Charges) are designed for mine _fields_, i.e. a bunch of them in an area that limit tactical mobility of a mechaniised column. They are static defences and are breached by machines that can and do take their time about things. 1-3 mph is common while sweeping. IEDs are, by their nature a) improvised, b) non-standard in their operation and c) employed singly or in very small numbers.

A machine designed for clearing a field of pressure or magnetic mines isn't any good agaist a command detonated car bomb. A single 500lb bomb rigged to a pressure plate in the middle of a farm road can, indeed, be found by a flail or plow or roller system, however your convoy is at significantly more risk if it toodles up the road at 2 MPH behind a flail that completely destroys the road it is sweeping than if it tears up the road at 40 mph to get to the end point as quick as posisble. In local conflicts like this speed is generally a better defence than armour or clearing. Sure, when you get hit, you get hit hard, but the number of ambushes you avoid by speeding to the destination makes you safer than eliminating the possibility that there might be one bomb along a 60 mile route march. Once you start sweeping every square inch of every road along a convoy you can expect the bad guys to start lining up to take shots at your convoy as it takes 30 hours to get 60 miles as opposed to two.

Certainly the flails and the ground penetrating radar vehicles are being used where there are indications that there actually are mines or where there are requirements to positively sweep an area, but you can't use these vehicles to sweep every inch of the entire country or as convoy point or actual combat vehicles. It just doesn't work fast enough to be a better way to protect troops.

Now, you want to be a seriously rich military contractor? Just develop a system that can find and destroy mines and command detonated IEDs at 40 MPH. All the world's militaries will beat a road a mile wide paved with gold to your door.

Paul
Johnston_RCR
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 06:24 AM UTC
Well said Paul. The only thing I can add is to bring up the return trip of that convoy. It doesn't take long at all to plant a mine, or hide an IED. As soon as the Panther or similar vehicle is out of sight, the insurgents are going to run back out to reset whatever devices they use on the route. Going about 3 MPH both ways, all the time, for every convoy is very dangerous. Also, logistics come into play. Military vehicles drink a lot of gas. Increasing the time they are running drains fuel depots, and adds to logistical strain.
Hot-wheels
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Ohio, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 08:31 AM UTC
Hi folks

First off, To Jim, and Fledermaus Guys my little note at the end of my post was a joke. Nothing more. It was in no way a politcal rant of any kind. If you gentlemen knew me and my past you would know I joke alot. I'm sorry if it came across as somthing else.
2nd thank you to all those who replied to help me clear up a bit of confusion.
3rd To everyone, I promise to try to contain my jokes in future post. I'm a wisea#$$. and sometimes I can't help myself.
Harry
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