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Scrapping M1s?
mikeo
Joined: April 12, 2006
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Posted: Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 10:28 PM UTC
I caught the tail end of a History Channel (US) show about the Anniston Army Depot last night. In it they mentioned that they have a private contractor cutting up M1 Abrams tanks. Is that accurate? I thought that the Army was using old M1 Hulls to build their M1A2 SEP tanks. Not to mention the M1A1 AIM program. What Gives?
matt
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: February 28, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 10:41 PM UTC
Maybe Unserviceable ones...... I Don;t think I'd wanna be cutting into the DU Armor... but that's me...............
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 11:41 PM UTC
The ones that are blown up or burnt (I had one of those) are stripped of parts then recycled. A34 went up while we were during an ARTEP at Fort Bliss. The main hydraulic pump bust sending the FRH over the turbine engine. She went up like a roman candle. The heat was so intense that the armor plating buckeled. The tank was sent to Corpus Christi for evaluation and then Anniston for recycling. The dim wits at brigade tried to make the crew pay for the tank. Yeah, right. But, we successfully evaded that bullet.
DJ
DJ
rcnpthfndr
Joined: February 15, 2006
KitMaker: 284 posts
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Posted: Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 11:48 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The dim wits at brigade tried to make the crew pay for the tank.
isnt that the army. i have seen that a couple of times over the year.
the best one was in germany late 89 when a new M1A1 broke something on the right side and the tank took a very sudden 90 degree right turn into a pond. dirver was trapped, almost drowned had to be resucitated and our squadron commander tried to hit him with statement of charges for a lsot pro-mask. What the heck! you have to wonder
then there was the time in hohenfells when one our troop tanks caught on fire with the basic load on board
goldenpony
Joined: July 03, 2007
KitMaker: 3,529 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 12:04 AM UTC
The military makes not sense at times.
Tankrider
Joined: October 07, 2002
KitMaker: 1,280 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 02:39 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The ones that are blown up or burnt (I had one of those) are stripped of parts then recycled. A34 went up while we were during an ARTEP at Fort Bliss. The main hydraulic pump bust sending the FRH over the turbine engine. She went up like a roman candle. The heat was so intense that the armor plating buckeled. The tank was sent to Corpus Christi for evaluation and then Anniston for recycling. The dim wits at brigade tried to make the crew pay for the tank. Yeah, right. But, we successfully evaded that bullet.
DJ
DJ,
Tanks for resurrecting another Ft Bliss memory. I remember that incident... Those guys at Brigade were survey happy. I dodged one for a M60A3 LRF that I was forced to take with me, unmounted, down to FT Campbell. Lots of "you should have" recommendations from the SO until I told him that it was not my idea and had resisted taking the damn thing until forced to do so... Such was life in the $1.94.
John
combatatc
Joined: May 07, 2007
KitMaker: 19 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 07:42 AM UTC
Typical army. The powers that be were debating whether to charge me for my HMMWV after it burned due to a hit from a 107 rocket. 
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 10:09 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextThe ones that are blown up or burnt (I had one of those) are stripped of parts then recycled. A34 went up while we were during an ARTEP at Fort Bliss. The main hydraulic pump bust sending the FRH over the turbine engine. She went up like a roman candle. The heat was so intense that the armor plating buckeled. The tank was sent to Corpus Christi for evaluation and then Anniston for recycling. The dim wits at brigade tried to make the crew pay for the tank. Yeah, right. But, we successfully evaded that bullet.
DJ
Tanks for resurrecting another Ft Bliss memory. I remember that incident... Those guys at Brigade were survey happy. I dodged one for a M60A3 LRF that I was forced to take with me, unmounted, down to FT Campbell. Lots of "you should have" recommendations from the SO until I told him that it was not my idea and had resisted taking the damn thing until forced to do so... Such was life in the $1.94.
John
John-- I could fill volumes with stories on the 194th. I simply say that I have know a man who was a worse brigade commander or a brigade commander who was a worse man. Apples do not fall far from the tree and his staff, unfortunately, reflected his total lack of command ability. How does one turn the best job in the Army into a two year nightmare? I do not know either. God Bless the Officers and Men of that battalion. You are my heroes.
.DJ,
JeepLC
Joined: June 20, 2007
KitMaker: 510 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 11:29 AM UTC
My friend Josh was billed by the Army when he took three 7.62mm rounds to his vest and one to the kevlar helmet... Not to mention billed again for the medical treatment he went through for wounds suffered during an IED blast. He got out of it all after some letters were sent to his Senator (one good thing a politician has done...).
Makes me wonder what is in store for me from the Marines. I have heared equal, if not worse, horror stories from them. A guy I went to school with took a round through his radio handset (which was against his head at the time). The Marines billed him and threatened to court martial him for "Reckless Endangerment of Equiptment". Did not figure that was a charge?
Makes me wonder what is in store for me from the Marines. I have heared equal, if not worse, horror stories from them. A guy I went to school with took a round through his radio handset (which was against his head at the time). The Marines billed him and threatened to court martial him for "Reckless Endangerment of Equiptment". Did not figure that was a charge?
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 02:06 PM UTC
And this week, the $1.94 lives again as the reflagged 1st ATB.
http://www.thenewsenterprise.com/articles/2007/07/13/turret/news02.txt
http://www.thenewsenterprise.com/articles/2007/07/13/turret/news02.txt
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 03:12 PM UTC
No, there were some incidents that hit the news about soldiers who were wounded, had gear removed from them during evacuation and were then charged for the items that were missing. These were failures in leadership at company and battalion level. Short surveys are needed to document combat losses, but statements are needed to account for the loss.
http://www.armytimes.com/legacy/new/1-292925-1521056.php
http://www.armytimes.com/legacy/new/1-292925-1521056.php
jjumbo
Joined: August 27, 2006
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 03:57 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Typical army. The powers that be were debating whether to charge me for my HMMWV after it burned due to a hit from a 107 rocket.
Only the modern military would try and blame individual soldiers or whole vehicle crews and then charge them costs when stuff breaks down or blows up on it's own accord.
THAT'S JUST PLAIN RIDICULOUS!!!!
.What's the old joke regarding the actual meaning of " lacking military intelligence"?
Could you imagine the U.S, British, Canadian or any other military outfit in WW II charging tank crews with the costs for their tanks or AFV's because they got "brewed up" ?
Absoulutey NUTS!!!!
Cheers
jjumbo
cuales
Joined: February 21, 2004
KitMaker: 54 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 04:36 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Could you imagine the U.S, British, Canadian or any other military outfit in WW II charging tank crews with the costs for their tanks or AFV's because they got "brewed up" ?
my god! tiger tank crews would be in trouble!
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 06:45 PM UTC
I think the "suburban myth " thing is working overtime here. Just like Gary and Rob said. 1st: There is accountability. A multimillion dollar piece of equipment is destroyed there must be accountability. So a report of survey is done. This ain't World War 2 where you could loose your rifle and just about anything else while in combat and no questions asked. I thnk the story gets embellished when the crew and a few others get asked a bunch of questions. Lke Gary says, if a soldier gets charged then he must have been found to be unusually negligent. Sure it happens that a ROS investigator goofs and is over -officious or draws a really wrong conclusion. But that doesn't happen very often. Most of us were instructed unless the negligence was egregious look to write it off..but you better have really good documentation.
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 11:24 PM UTC
Quoted Text
And this week, the $1.94 lives again as the reflagged 1st ATB.
http://www.thenewsenterprise.com/articles/2007/07/13/turret/news02.txt
Oh Lord, not again!
sgtreef
Joined: March 01, 2002
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Posted: Friday, July 13, 2007 - 11:51 PM UTC
Quoted Text
No, there were some incidents that hit the news about soldiers who were wounded, had gear removed from them during evacuation and were then charged for the items that were missing. These were failures in leadership at company and battalion level. Short surveys are needed to document combat losses, but statements are needed to account for the loss.
http://www.armytimes.com/legacy/new/1-292925-1521056.php
Darn that was a good read.
Look who was Secretary of Defense at the time
Now if that had been and should of been Collin Powell think it might of been different.
My 2 cents,otherwise Jim will be hitting me for voicing my beliefs.
CaptainA
Joined: May 14, 2007
KitMaker: 3,117 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 12:11 AM UTC
I can tell you about some reports of survey.
First, at Ft. Knox, when M1s were first coming into the system. An M1 was pulled over by the military police for speeding on range road. Not knowing the exhaust was potentially dangerous, the MP pulled up right behind the M1 and got its paint blistered while the speeding ticket was being prepared. The tank commander and driver were surveyed for the loss of a paint job. I was transferred before the survey was completed, and don't know the outcome.
Second, At a Military Entrance Processing Station, a young service member was surveyed for destroying a van. He was in the van when a speeding, out of control car t-boned him. The commander tried to intimidate the survey officer into finding the van driver responsible. Yeah, I know that never happens. In support of the young van driver, I reccomended the survey officer get the civilian police accident investigators to write a report. It showed the car was traveling 70 in a 35 zone. The driver was found not responsible. The commander refsed to sign off on the survey officers findings, reccomending the van driver be held responsible. Luckily, the higher commander accepted the findings.
In the 2/6 Cav, A soldier was charged with damaging Government Property for getting sunburned. Yeah this really happened. I didn't hear about it from somebody.... I was actually a platoon leader in the company and set in on the charges as they were being read.
Now for a trip down memory lane. In WWII, my father was half in and half out of his turret working on some equipment on his Sherman tank, when he felt somebody grab him and pull him out of the turret. He spun around getting ready to throw a punch when he realized the offender was old blood and guts himself. It seems there was a light misting rain had started, and my dads tools were left out in the weather. So he got chewed out for not taking care of his tools.
Commanders are responsible for equipment and personnel. Surveys must be initiated to provide an independent accounting of what happened to that equipment. If surveys were not initiated, the commander could be held responsible. So surveys can seem stupid at times, but they do serve a purpose.
First, at Ft. Knox, when M1s were first coming into the system. An M1 was pulled over by the military police for speeding on range road. Not knowing the exhaust was potentially dangerous, the MP pulled up right behind the M1 and got its paint blistered while the speeding ticket was being prepared. The tank commander and driver were surveyed for the loss of a paint job. I was transferred before the survey was completed, and don't know the outcome.
Second, At a Military Entrance Processing Station, a young service member was surveyed for destroying a van. He was in the van when a speeding, out of control car t-boned him. The commander tried to intimidate the survey officer into finding the van driver responsible. Yeah, I know that never happens. In support of the young van driver, I reccomended the survey officer get the civilian police accident investigators to write a report. It showed the car was traveling 70 in a 35 zone. The driver was found not responsible. The commander refsed to sign off on the survey officers findings, reccomending the van driver be held responsible. Luckily, the higher commander accepted the findings.
In the 2/6 Cav, A soldier was charged with damaging Government Property for getting sunburned. Yeah this really happened. I didn't hear about it from somebody.... I was actually a platoon leader in the company and set in on the charges as they were being read.
Now for a trip down memory lane. In WWII, my father was half in and half out of his turret working on some equipment on his Sherman tank, when he felt somebody grab him and pull him out of the turret. He spun around getting ready to throw a punch when he realized the offender was old blood and guts himself. It seems there was a light misting rain had started, and my dads tools were left out in the weather. So he got chewed out for not taking care of his tools.
Commanders are responsible for equipment and personnel. Surveys must be initiated to provide an independent accounting of what happened to that equipment. If surveys were not initiated, the commander could be held responsible. So surveys can seem stupid at times, but they do serve a purpose.
FuNsTeR
Joined: October 19, 2005
KitMaker: 273 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 02:42 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I caught the tail end of a History Channel (US) show about the Anniston Army Depot last night. In it they mentioned that they have a private contractor cutting up M1 Abrams tanks. Is that accurate? I thought that the Army was using old M1 Hulls to build their M1A2 SEP tanks. Not to mention the M1A1 AIM program. What Gives?
between the first and second road wheel is the easiest place to kill a Abrams tank, it will never be as effective as the leopard 2 series until they fix the major vulnerability of the Abrams tank that allows it to be knocked out by a rpg round
BroAbrams
Joined: October 02, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 03:10 AM UTC
Mike, I think you saw National Geographics Ultimate Factories, M-1 Tank. If that is the case they never said they were cutting up the Abrams. They do everything for the Abrams in house. They also saids they don't cut the hulls unless there was a damaged panel or armor that had to be replaced, in which case they even had an underwater plasma cutter they could make new panels with. There was even a giant bead blaster that they lifted the hull into, then it rotated around and got blasted. You would not believe how nice and shiny that hull looked after it got done.
M-60A3TC
Joined: August 28, 2006
KitMaker: 8 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 06:25 AM UTC
The show Mike is referencing is called Boneyards on the History Channel. The show opened with them tearing down an M-1IP on the same line with M-1A1's undergoing overhauls at Anniston. The bumper #'s on the tank looked like it was last assigned to the 40th ID, CANG. The turret was pulled and carted off elsewhere and a more extensive tear down of the hull was shown - they did not say what they were doing with the tank, scrap it? convert the hull? - just showed the tear down. Latter in the show they were covering an off post scrap yard that recycles metal from the depot - it was during that segment that the yard owner mentioned he just got a govt. contract to scrap M-1 tanks. Show also mentioned that due to security reasons they were not allowed to photograph battle damaged equipment. Very interesting show that also left me with more questions than answers.
combatatc
Joined: May 07, 2007
KitMaker: 19 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 10:11 AM UTC
No rest of the story to it. The only thing untoward with the vehicle was that I had the doors removed (this vehicle never left the FOB). For some reason that was supposed to have contributed to the fire. Some lifers can't stand to think that "their" army would do anything wrong or stupid.
"I'd heard plenty of these stories the 23 years I was in the Army. The VAST majority were just out and out bull. The rest, had another component to the story. Like said person was in the wrong to begin with, and placed equipment and or other personel in danger due to their bone head actions. Most of these stories are embellished or flat made up by some disgruntled Pvt. Joe Shootragbag."
"I'd heard plenty of these stories the 23 years I was in the Army. The VAST majority were just out and out bull. The rest, had another component to the story. Like said person was in the wrong to begin with, and placed equipment and or other personel in danger due to their bone head actions. Most of these stories are embellished or flat made up by some disgruntled Pvt. Joe Shootragbag."
troubble27
Joined: October 10, 2003
KitMaker: 783 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 03:07 PM UTC
Errr................ummm............back to the topic............I wouldnt be too surprised if they did contract someone to destroy the M1 Wrecks. On the history channel recently was also how they contracted a civilian contractor to destroy all the old F14 Tomcats and shred them into unservicable
"mince meat" (for lack of a better term). Apparently they were afraid of foreign countries getting their hands on spare tomcat parts and also secretive technology. I would tend to think they would want someone to do a good job of destroying the Abrams wrecks too. We wouldnt want say Iran to get their hands on some armor or electronics sold off through a middle man now would we?
"mince meat" (for lack of a better term). Apparently they were afraid of foreign countries getting their hands on spare tomcat parts and also secretive technology. I would tend to think they would want someone to do a good job of destroying the Abrams wrecks too. We wouldnt want say Iran to get their hands on some armor or electronics sold off through a middle man now would we?
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
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Posted: Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 11:55 PM UTC
Interesting diversion down memory lane. Two points. One, a person who enters medical evacuation channels (regardless of reason) is no longer accountable for property. You may survey property lost, but they are not accountable. Point two, regardless of circumstances, a responsible commander using AR 735-11 must survey property for accountability. This means that a weapon, a housing area related item, a major end item of equipment or a vehicle must have a complete report of survey done to provide an explanation of the facts and circumstances surrounding the loss. It has been some time since I exercised that responsibility so one more current than I can adjust the particulars of my response. However, there are three people involved in the process an appointed surveying officer, an appointing authoirty and an approving authority. The survey officer based off of the statement by the responsible property owner evaluates what happened and why it happened. If there is negligence as defined in the regulation, he renders an appropriate recommenadation. This then goes to the appointing authority for comments and recommendation before going to a legal review and then to the approving authority for a decision. System works remarkably well even though, as I have stated, nitwits intervene. One of you folks on active duty can correct anything I have out of wack here.
Oh, by the way, I am a lifer too! (Haven't heard that expression since Vietnam) And, damn proud of it.
DJ
Oh, by the way, I am a lifer too! (Haven't heard that expression since Vietnam) And, damn proud of it.
DJ
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