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Armor/AFV: Vietnam
All things Vietnam
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What Field Guns were used?
hilltop
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Posted: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 12:35 PM UTC
What artillery guns were found on Firebases in the Vietnam era? Were they just artillery guns or did they have self-propelled artillery guns as well? ( i.e. M-109 S.P. Howitizer )

I have seen Howitzer M101's in movies is this accurate or where there other guns all together?

HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 01:51 PM UTC
Fire Bases had multiple different caliber and type of guns so they could reach different ranges and have different effects. Usually, the inner ring was M110 8" or M109 155mm SPs. Further out there were usually M114 towed 155mm howitzers, then either M101 105mm (early and USMC) or M102 105mm howitzers (US Army and later). On the perimeter were usually M107 4.2" mortars and machine gun pits around the perimeter.

Here are a couple pics and diagrams to show how they were laid out.





Hope that answers your question.
thathaway3
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Posted: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 - 03:47 PM UTC
Great shots, Gino! In addition, I'm fairly certain that several batteries in country were "composite" batteries and had both the M110 (short tube 8") howitzer AND the very long tube M107 175mm gun (both of which used the same chassis), but that's is not a typical organization.

Generally, all the guns within a battery (4-8 depending on the type and the time period) are exactly the same, and all the batteries in a battalion are equipped with the same type as well. Simplifies logistics, training etc. so when you have multiple calibers, on the same fire base it would probably indicate different units for each type of piece.

Love the shot of the M102 shooting high angle!! (I wonder if he's using a DAP for the aiming reference)

Tom
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 08:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

What artillery guns were found on Firebases in the Vietnam era? Were they just artillery guns or did they have self-propelled artillery guns as well? ( i.e. M-109 S.P. Howitizer )

I have seen Howitzer M101's in movies is this accurate or where there other guns all together?



The venerable M101 105mm howitzer of World War Two fame did indeed serve in Vietnam (though the gunshield was sometimes removed to save weight). In fact, it was in service in National Guard units right through the 1980's, at least. The M102 was introduced during the war, but never fully replaced its older stablemate.
hilltop
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Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 08:42 AM UTC
Thanks guys your help was super. Now I know what kits to order to complete part of my diorama nightmare.

Okay now here's a another question on the same topic. How did the marking or camo differ from each unit or force? i.e. did the Army have just plain olive drab or did they use camo tactics coloration?
thathaway3
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Posted: Friday, August 24, 2007 - 10:08 AM UTC
I didn't reach active duty until 1972, and that was in Germany, and not Vietnam. I won't say there weren't any camo'd howitzers, but I've never seen any photos, and if there were, it was NOT per the regs (like that ever affected anything done in Vietnam.)

I arrived in Germany in October of 1972, and at that time all the vehicles were still in overall OD with white markings. We got the orders to do the original 4 color pattern painting I believe during the summer of 1973. I know that we were in the process of swapping out our short tube M109s for long tube M109A1s during the summer of 1974, and I have a picture of the gun line in the motor pool with a mix of short and long tubes and everything is painted.

I know we chalked off the patterns on the vehicles in the motor pool and painted them by hand, but the M109A1s we got came already painted from the depot.

So doing a Vietnam artillery piece (unless you're going from an actual photo that shows something different), it should be overall OD and dusty!

Tom
Whiskey6
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Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 05:14 AM UTC
The shot of the M-114's is very useful.

First note: The barrel of the guns forward of the recoil mechanism were highly polished stainless steel. They were not painted.....just cleaned and oiled.

The odd looking pyramid-shaped item next to the right trail was a usefull gadget in the 6400 mill environment of Vietnam. You can see that the gun has been elevated on its firing jack which was necessary for firing. Unfortunately, it was impossible to pivot the piece about the firing jack in order to engage targets in a different direction.

That is where the gadget comes in. The stand was placed under the axle of the piece and then the gun was lowered down onto the stand which allowed the gun to be pivoted much more easily than if it was lowered all the way onto it's wheels. It was a lot of slow work to shift targets!!!

Dave
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 06:09 AM UTC
We had a composite of a 105 battery and three 155s on each firebase (1stCAV and 101st) in the 1970-1972 era. I never saw a 4.2" although both divisions had 81mm on the FSB which normally just popped a few rounds out to make everyone feel good. Now, the bad guys were something else.....they were deadly with a 60mm mortar. Pop three-four round out then scoot.
Ah, the past!
DJ
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 06:01 PM UTC
the size of the LZ, plus the actual location had a lot to do with what was placed on it. If it was on fairly level terrain, and have access to roads or even trails you might see a self propeled gun unit there. Also the higher the ground the better it was. If you happened to be out on the Laotian border you'd expect to see 155's or even 105's, but not often an SP. As a rule the guns were laid out in what is known as a "lazy W" formation; with a piece at each point. The direction you expected to shoot in the most was the direction you'd see the three most forward pieces.
Mortar pits were usually back from the perimeter, and most often in the center of the fire base. Should your unit be lucky enough to have a 4.2" mortar; it would be dug in pretty deep to help hide the flash. Often you'd see an 81mm mortar close by, but never right next to it. Also nearby would be a fifty or even an M60 on higher ground to give the crew a covering fire if the perimeter were to be breeched. The 4.2" mortar was very usfull in mountanous regions as it was able to reach into the deep pockets much easier than a howitzer shooting high angle fire. The trick with the mortars was to have as many points as possible registered before anything ever happened.
Lastly it was not at all uncommon to see a six gun unit broke up into two three gun units offering each a covering fire. I've even seen them broke into three two gun units re-enforced with a pair of 81mm mortars at each location.
gary
210cav
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Posted: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 - 11:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text

the size of the LZ, plus the actual location had a lot to do with what was placed on it. If it was on fairly level terrain, and have access to roads or even trails you might see a self propeled gun unit there. Also the higher the ground the better it was. If you happened to be out on the Laotian border you'd expect to see 155's or even 105's, but not often an SP. As a rule the guns were laid out in what is known as a "lazy W" formation; with a piece at each point. The direction you expected to shoot in the most was the direction you'd see the three most forward pieces.
Mortar pits were usually back from the perimeter, and most often in the center of the fire base. Should your unit be lucky enough to have a 4.2" mortar; it would be dug in pretty deep to help hide the flash. Often you'd see an 81mm mortar close by, but never right next to it. Also nearby would be a fifty or even an M60 on higher ground to give the crew a covering fire if the perimeter were to be breeched. The 4.2" mortar was very usfull in mountanous regions as it was able to reach into the deep pockets much easier than a howitzer shooting high angle fire. The trick with the mortars was to have as many points as possible registered before anything ever happened.
Lastly it was not at all uncommon to see a six gun unit broke up into two three gun units offering each a covering fire. I've even seen them broke into three two gun units re-enforced with a pair of 81mm mortars at each location.
gary



Gary--who were you with and when were you over there? Each unit was unique to a certain degree. Interesting to find out the variety of set-ups used.
thanks
DJ
hilltop
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 02:06 AM UTC
Hey guys you lot are the greatest. I know you haven't heard from me in a while, but I've been taking your advice. Doing sum research. I know that taking ideas from a movie is not always the best but my information came from the movie, " Green Beret ". Is this an accurate movie, to what was found at a FB. Here are some notes I took from the movie.

Coloration - tan or khaki sand bags.
- olive drab tents
Barbed Wire around the FB ; at least 2 rows spaced apart making a ' killing zone '
Sentry post cut from trees with a platform on top with sandbags.
Barrels are grey and white. Corrugated tin for the top or sides of bunkers.
Usually on a elevated hill with the tree line cut back. Huts can be wooden ( can make with Popsicle sticks or balsam wood. Hospital tent or bunker has a + on top or a flag. Grass is thin everywhere, besides rice patties. Rice patties are raised ground with square fields between. Mud can always be seen thru grass and trees. Most bunkers are dug in with a trench leading to it. Most trees are bamboo-like. Tunnels ar e roughly cut out, low walking ceilings, cramped quarters.

Is this an accurate description of some of the views seen in Vietnam or do I need to find another movie?

Into war movies? Get DivX Player and Stage6. Watch all the war movies they have on file or download your own for people to watch. It's a free download.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 02:16 AM UTC
What you have described is a pretty accuarte portrayal of vietnam bases camps and firebases. I would suggest getting some books with actual pictures of Vietnam though and not using movies as a referance for accuracy.
hilltop
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 02:33 AM UTC
thanks Heavy Arty. I have been online checking out extensive pics of fire bases and bases. Rice patties and all, even looking at pics of just the landscape now for coloration purposes. And as stated to me before the coloration depends on your location in country.
The only thing that confuses me is most pics I see of trees are mostly some sort of bamboo, what other types where in country. the pics I have don't really allow me to figure out what type of trees they are and I 'm a gardener for my Govt. I have been trying to find some close ups pics of a rice patty. I've found a few but not the angle I want. Anyone have a pic?
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 05:31 AM UTC
Well, the John Wayne movie (The Green Berets) was filmed at Fort Benning, GA. The Special Forces camp depicted in the film is not a FSB. FSBs were designed for a conventional tactical unit to operate out of under the protection of friendly artillery fire. The emplacements for the perimeter guards were dug into the berm, for example. There were no watch towers. SF guys had above and below ground bunkers along with watch towers. I worked the Cambodia operation and War Zone D for a little over a year and the 1st Cavalry FSBs moved to support the ground companies of which there were four in a battalion every few months, sometimes weeks. One rifle company was on the FSB as a perimeter guard the othe three were in the field at about the twelve, four and eight o'clock positions around the FSB center, but never outside the artillery fan. If memory serves me right that circular fan was drawn 20 kilometers around the FSB. When we were in Cambodiathe FSB was initially in Vietnam covering our move across the border then displaced to suport our given area of operations. They set-up an FSB fairly quickly. Helicopters would air lift the dozers in to clear the jungle and build the berm then bring in the artillery pieces and other junk.
DJ
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 05:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

the size of the LZ, plus the actual location had a lot to do with what was placed on it. If it was on fairly level terrain, and have access to roads or even trails you might see a self propeled gun unit there. Also the higher the ground the better it was. If you happened to be out on the Laotian border you'd expect to see 155's or even 105's, but not often an SP. As a rule the guns were laid out in what is known as a "lazy W" formation; with a piece at each point. The direction you expected to shoot in the most was the direction you'd see the three most forward pieces.
Mortar pits were usually back from the perimeter, and most often in the center of the fire base. Should your unit be lucky enough to have a 4.2" mortar; it would be dug in pretty deep to help hide the flash. Often you'd see an 81mm mortar close by, but never right next to it. Also nearby would be a fifty or even an M60 on higher ground to give the crew a covering fire if the perimeter were to be breeched. The 4.2" mortar was very usfull in mountanous regions as it was able to reach into the deep pockets much easier than a howitzer shooting high angle fire. The trick with the mortars was to have as many points as possible registered before anything ever happened.
Lastly it was not at all uncommon to see a six gun unit broke up into two three gun units offering each a covering fire. I've even seen them broke into three two gun units re-enforced with a pair of 81mm mortars at each location.
gary



Gary--who were you with and when were you over there? Each unit was unique to a certain degree. Interesting to find out the variety of set-ups used.
thanks
DJ



I was with Bravo, 3rd of the 16th from 12-7-67 to 2-22-69. First LZ I was on was Gator about six miles south of Chu Lai. Was one several south of there to Dragon & Liz. I did do "five four" for a short while, but spent the largest part of my time out at Thien Phouc and in the Que Son Valley. I did many ops with the 196th and 101st airborne, spent the majority of the last nine months shooting for an S.F. "A Team" working out of Thien Phouc.
Parapit design is almost a black art. Has to be done exactly right, or you'll pay dearly for it.
gary
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 06:14 AM UTC
Gary-- thanks. I pounded the bush with B, 1/7 CAV, 1CD then came back for a tour with B 1/502. 101st. Good outfits.
DJ
trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 08:48 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gary-- thanks. I pounded the bush with B, 1/7 CAV, 1CD then came back for a tour with B 1/502. 101st. Good outfits.
DJ



I did a couple ops with the five-O-duce! The last one I was on was with them. Not that I did anything that matters with them. I was part of a staged reactionary force that never was used, and about the only thing we zapped was rats. Hundreds and hundreds of them! That was the one that took place in Jan. 1969 a little south of Ashau.
I think my brother inlaw was with the 1st of the 7th CAV, or the quarter CAV down south before the Big Red One went home. He then was sent up to my AO and the 1st of the 1st (B Troop) Armored CAV. Funny thing was that he moved into my AO a couple weeks after I headed back home.
I never knew this till one day he poped up with a bunch of pictures, and one of them was a well dome ACAV. Asked him if he'd ever been up north, and if so was that track on the Tam Key Road? He said yes, and I told him was one of the guys who blew that track up in place. Also told him it was booby trapped all over, and he sorta turned pale. That was when we were young and dumb!
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 08:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Well, the John Wayne movie (The Green Berets) was filmed at Fort Benning, GA. The Special Forces camp depicted in the film is not a FSB. FSBs were designed for a conventional tactical unit to operate out of under the protection of friendly artillery fire. The emplacements for the perimeter guards were dug into the berm, for example. There were no watch towers. SF guys had above and below ground bunkers along with watch towers. I worked the Cambodia operation and War Zone D for a little over a year and the 1st Cavalry FSBs moved to support the ground companies of which there were four in a battalion every few months, sometimes weeks. One rifle company was on the FSB as a perimeter guard the othe three were in the field at about the twelve, four and eight o'clock positions around the FSB center, but never outside the artillery fan. If memory serves me right that circular fan was drawn 20 kilometers around the FSB. When we were in Cambodiathe FSB was initially in Vietnam covering our move across the border then displaced to suport our given area of operations. They set-up an FSB fairly quickly. Helicopters would air lift the dozers in to clear the jungle and build the berm then bring in the artillery pieces and other junk.
DJ



I'd almost completely forgotten about those little bitty dozers they used to bring out with a helecopter! We used to get this one Indian kid to come out
(he was a Seabee), and have him dig berms for us as well as clear fire zones. Poor guy was shot at more than anybody I'd ever seen, and it finally reached a point that they would send a couple squads of CIDG's out in front of him by about three hundred yards. On mountain tops we started using Daisy Cutters even before we moved in.
gary
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 09:55 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Well, the John Wayne movie (The Green Berets) was filmed at Fort Benning, GA. The Special Forces camp depicted in the film is not a FSB. FSBs were designed for a conventional tactical unit to operate out of under the protection of friendly artillery fire. The emplacements for the perimeter guards were dug into the berm, for example. There were no watch towers. SF guys had above and below ground bunkers along with watch towers. I worked the Cambodia operation and War Zone D for a little over a year and the 1st Cavalry FSBs moved to support the ground companies of which there were four in a battalion every few months, sometimes weeks. One rifle company was on the FSB as a perimeter guard the othe three were in the field at about the twelve, four and eight o'clock positions around the FSB center, but never outside the artillery fan. If memory serves me right that circular fan was drawn 20 kilometers around the FSB. When we were in Cambodiathe FSB was initially in Vietnam covering our move across the border then displaced to suport our given area of operations. They set-up an FSB fairly quickly. Helicopters would air lift the dozers in to clear the jungle and build the berm then bring in the artillery pieces and other junk.
DJ



I'd almost completely forgotten about those little bitty dozers they used to bring out with a helecopter! We used to get this one Indian kid to come out
(he was a Seabee), and have him dig berms for us as well as clear fire zones. Poor guy was shot at more than anybody I'd ever seen, and it finally reached a point that they would send a couple squads of CIDG's out in front of him by about three hundred yards. On mountain tops we started using Daisy Cutters even before we moved in.
gary



Gary--- exciting times. Some great memories. Trust you are doing well and continue to be proud of your service to the Nation.
Well done!
DJ
ALBOWIE
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 10:27 AM UTC
Also the Australian FSB had a mix of Aust, New Zealand and US guns. The Main base at Nui Dat had US heavies (8 " and 155s), Aust and NZ 105s (M101 (Aust) and L5 Pack (NZ) plus the Bns 81mm Mortars.
FSB as deployed tended to have just the Mortars and 105s of either type. FSB Coral which the enemy tried to overrun had M101 105's and Mortars. At least 1 gun was overrun but retaking during the battle. The Gunners were firing Canister at point blank.
Cheers
Al
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:49 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Well, the John Wayne movie (The Green Berets) was filmed at Fort Benning, GA. The Special Forces camp depicted in the film is not a FSB. FSBs were designed for a conventional tactical unit to operate out of under the protection of friendly artillery fire. The emplacements for the perimeter guards were dug into the berm, for example. There were no watch towers. SF guys had above and below ground bunkers along with watch towers. I worked the Cambodia operation and War Zone D for a little over a year and the 1st Cavalry FSBs moved to support the ground companies of which there were four in a battalion every few months, sometimes weeks. One rifle company was on the FSB as a perimeter guard the othe three were in the field at about the twelve, four and eight o'clock positions around the FSB center, but never outside the artillery fan. If memory serves me right that circular fan was drawn 20 kilometers around the FSB. When we were in Cambodiathe FSB was initially in Vietnam covering our move across the border then displaced to suport our given area of operations. They set-up an FSB fairly quickly. Helicopters would air lift the dozers in to clear the jungle and build the berm then bring in the artillery pieces and other junk.
DJ



I'd almost completely forgotten about those little bitty dozers they used to bring out with a helecopter! We used to get this one Indian kid to come out
(he was a Seabee), and have him dig berms for us as well as clear fire zones. Poor guy was shot at more than anybody I'd ever seen, and it finally reached a point that they would send a couple squads of CIDG's out in front of him by about three hundred yards. On mountain tops we started using Daisy Cutters even before we moved in.
gary



Gary--- exciting times. Some great memories. Trust you are doing well and continue to be proud of your service to the Nation.
Well done!
DJ



I guess I did better that a lot of guys did. Still I had a hard time for a couple years. Had the usual nightmares and some sounds would set my mind to moving, but the one thing I never would have thought would trigger me was certain smells and rain in the middle of the night. And less not forget the fog! But you have to learn how to deal with them, and get off the "dragon's tail." If you don't it's an infinite ride that's just as lethal. I'm not a deeply religious person like some, but I did learn to talk to God in the early months of my tour. You just can't go at it alone. My combat tour was nothing but an ageing process. I soon learned that the things that men do to each other is nothing like the movies.
gary
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 12:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Also the Australian FSB had a mix of Aust, New Zealand and US guns. The Main base at Nui Dat had US heavies (8 " and 155s), Aust and NZ 105s (M101 (Aust) and L5 Pack (NZ) plus the Bns 81mm Mortars.
FSB as deployed tended to have just the Mortars and 105s of either type. FSB Coral which the enemy tried to overrun had M101 105's and Mortars. At least 1 gun was overrun but retaking during the battle. The Gunners were firing Canister at point blank.
Cheers
Al



that's the one thing the 105's had over the 155's. They had behive rounds, and the fools in the Whitehouse wouldn't let the 155 units have them even though they were in the inventory. I do remember being down by Quang Ngai with the 101st right after Tet, and shooting HE and WP with the minimum time on fuses and a charge one greenbag. By August I'd learned to make my own recipe of "foo gas", and how to daisy chain a half dozen bomb fuse cases filled with the stuff together. Still a can round would probably been even better. You become a journeyman by the time you have five months in country, and things just become robotic.
gary
hilltop
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Posted: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 - 02:00 PM UTC
Guys, you make me feel as thou I was there. And most of it I weren't even born yet ( 8/8/72 ). Your memory is so vivid, and I did know where they filmed " Green Berets " , but the ideas were supposed to be identical to the real thing. I saw it on a docu bout the ' Duke '.
I never got stories from my father or uncle bout in country cause they were wet behind the ears; NAVY. I mean they didn't even do river patrols, so my knowledge was small. Just what I read, saw and the bit I heard. I had a guy I worked with here in Bermuda ( his name has slipped my memory ), but he was is the Australian Forces not sure what div, but he got the Highest Medal awarded in the Australian Army in 2005 I believe. He worked he at the Bermuda Biological station on the the RSV Weatherbird. He told me a bit bout in country before he left to go home to Australia. I have a photo copy of his award and name and all, when I find I will post. Guys feel free to talk about NAm it helps me with my projects. Which I have finalized down to 3 scenes.
1. A FSB
2. A Rice Patty Field
3. A Tunnel System

For the figures I have rite now they are my best moves until I get sum more kits.
No I haven't given up on the Heliobase but after seeing my mates Chinook 1/35, I decided to hold off on that for a while. It weren't the $149 price tag it was the size. My dio would have to be at least 5-6 feet wide just to accommodate the Chinook, and I haven't even thought about adding any other heli. If you were following my other blogs, you'd see were I was told I have the wrong year & model of a AH-1 Cobra, so I got an idea I used to do with my old Tiger tanks to show battle damage. BURN IT!!!! I am gonna use the Cobra , burn it and amke it look like it got shot down. How does that sound for turning a date line around?
Cheers guys!! Keep you posted!!!
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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Posted: Thursday, October 04, 2007 - 03:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Guys, you make me feel as thou I was there. And most of it I weren't even born yet ( 8/8/72 ). Your memory is so vivid, and I did know where they filmed " Green Berets " , but the ideas were supposed to be identical to the real thing. I saw it on a docu bout the ' Duke '.
I never got stories from my father or uncle bout in country cause they were wet behind the ears; NAVY. I mean they didn't even do river patrols, so my knowledge was small. Just what I read, saw and the bit I heard. I had a guy I worked with here in Bermuda ( his name has slipped my memory ), but he was is the Australian Forces not sure what div, but he got the Highest Medal awarded in the Australian Army in 2005 I believe. He worked he at the Bermuda Biological station on the the RSV Weatherbird. He told me a bit bout in country before he left to go home to Australia. I have a photo copy of his award and name and all, when I find I will post. Guys feel free to talk about NAm it helps me with my projects. Which I have finalized down to 3 scenes.
1. A FSB
2. A Rice Patty Field
3. A Tunnel System

For the figures I have rite now they are my best moves until I get sum more kits.
No I haven't given up on the Heliobase but after seeing my mates Chinook 1/35, I decided to hold off on that for a while. It weren't the $149 price tag it was the size. My dio would have to be at least 5-6 feet wide just to accommodate the Chinook, and I haven't even thought about adding any other heli. If you were following my other blogs, you'd see were I was told I have the wrong year & model of a AH-1 Cobra, so I got an idea I used to do with my old Tiger tanks to show battle damage. BURN IT!!!! I am gonna use the Cobra , burn it and amke it look like it got shot down. How does that sound for turning a date line around?
Cheers guys!! Keep you posted!!!



You know the name John Wayne has been posted a couple times here, and let me tell you all a couple little tales with that name.
* When I went on R&R (anybody wanta know how many Singaophore Slings can be consumed in a week?) I went thru Cam Rhon Bay, and I saw the Austrailian fellow complet with the bush hat there that was nearly a perfect clone for John wayne! I was stunned and just starred at him for about ten minutes!
*Someone mentioned the movie "Green Berets". We got to see that movie a couple weeks before it was actually released, and watched it out at Thien Phouc. Needless to say there was a lot of beer and laughter going on. After the movie was over all of us (S.F. guys too) formed a parade and marched up the main drag (what littler there was) drunk and singing "The Ballad Of The Green Berets!" First shirt came out to see what all the noise was about and laughed at us so hard that he actually had to set on the ground. Looking back I think we probably made three passes up and down the pathway (some of us had trouble staying in formation by the second trip). But I can still hear all the runkus as if it was yesterday evening.

gary
 _GOTOTOP