Hi guys
I am probably going to be making a Northern Ireland Border patrol dio soon. Therefore I have two questions.
a.) Would you see a humber pig and a landrover together in the same patrol
b.) How many soldiers (not inlcuding drivers) would be in the patrol

Thanks very much. Nick

hi

what time period are you thinking of doing 70s, 80s or 90s.
that would set what vehicles were around then.
in the 70s their were ferrets,saracens, pigs in use

usually, when i was their in the 80s we worked in ' bricks ' of 4 men. most foot patrols were of at least 3 brick multiples, so a minimum of 12 men.

our mobiles were usually 2 rovers 8 blokes

the pigs were not really used until riots etc kicked off. most of our rural patroling was done in rovers or foot

there was a set of, i think 4 books that covered a lot of the 'troubles'
i think they were called 'the british army in northern ireland'


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/The-British-Army-In-Northern-Ireland-1985-1st-Edition_W0QQitemZ140162867028QQihZ004QQcategoryZ90694QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

this is a compilation of all the books


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/the-british-army-in-ulster-vol-1-northern-ireland_W0QQitemZ330170546815QQihZ014QQcategoryZ27324QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/ni/index.html

hope i was of some help


mark

Hi Mark
I would like to do it as in the '80s. I found this picture from an online archive of Soldier Magazine:

and would like to do my own version of it involving a lynx helicopter (already built) and possibly a landy and some figures.
here is an initial 'sketch' (minus the landy which will probably be on the road with the pig):

The green dots are soldiers (at the moment there are only 8 but I understand from your post I will need more). The Lynx is a Royal Marines Lynx minus the TOW launchers (see the kit [url=http://www.accurate-armour.com/ShowProduct.cfm?manufacturer=0&category=13&subcategory=239&product=1727[/url] ) Any other help would be gratefully received. Cheers. Nick

Here is a picture of the Lynx

Nick

hi nick

check your PM mate

your photo is from 82 so there will be no SA80 weapons and i dont think the marines flew lynx then ( also most of them were down south).

what figures are you going to use?

try to set a specific year and we will be able to work out a better equipment set up

mark

you probably wouldn'y want to put more figures in to be honest mate.
the way that the bricks would work is by satteliting round the boss's team so the teams would not be that close for any amount of time unless the tactics dictated that the need to be.
it was all about providing mutual support and depth to the multiple.

Hi guys
Right, I think it is going to be around '86. Figures will probably be Accurate Armour and Kirin (if i can find them) and possibly 'firing line' with SA80's. I have updated the sketch to include the Landy. Martin, I have added more figures for two reasons, a.) the story, the patrol has stopped to report to the Lynx or visa versa and so all teams have come in to provide close protection for the Lynx and vehicles. b.) It fills the space as otherwise Im not sure what else I would put there. Anyways heres the updated 'sketch'


What do you guys think?? Nick
PS, can anyone see what it says on the sign in the photo. just curious!! (i think it might say unsurfaced road, however it looks pretty well surfaced!!)

It says "Unapproved Road"

Nick
I know we are going to confuse you even more but it depends when and what section of the border they where patrolling.Early days of the troubles it was common to see Land rover and pigs patrolling the border areas. Then the vehicles became victim to roadside and culvert bombs . A common sight was for border patrols to be dropped and lifted off in a field by choppers typically in South Armagh, usually Lynx or Wessex and in some cases Chinooks. Vehicles where easily spotted and could be heard for miles on the deserted country roads.

Cookie

Hi guys
Pat, thanks for that.
Cookie. What do you mean by early days?
Is there no way that they would be using a pig and a landy in the second half of the 80's. If not I will have to get some SLR's from somewhere!! therefore it will probably be either '83 or '84 or '87 (if this is feasible). These are three of the years that the Royal Marines were in South Armagh. Any more help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Nick

I have heard that DML made a vietnam weapons set with an SLR or two in it, however i also know its OOP, howeer Ive found this kit:

Does anyone know whether the rifles that the two guys are holding are SLR or M16's(??) Cheers. Nick

Nick
I am recalling this as a civililan who had family and friends in the security forces back then. Throughtout the troubles Pigs where certaintly used but i seem to recall them been largely replaced by armoured landrovers in the eighties. In the erly days(seventies) they where common on patrols.and where used as transport vehicle to and from bases,Police stations, and barracks. This would have been in the period when SLR's where in use. They where more common in riot control situations. . Some of the bases where accessible only by helicopter.Th picture of the painting of the Lynx dropping of a patrol is a familiar scene i remember with the police and Army border patrols

Cookie

They are both M16's AFAIK the US didn't use the SLR, but the aussies in Nam did I think.

James

Two Australian companies Mouse House Armour and Firestorm Models make sets of SLRs.

its worth mentioning also that the sa80 was only introduced in 1985, so not all units would have had them until after that.
Also on a lot of rural tours you would have had possible a m79 grenade launcher (not each!!!) one per brick if lucky enough and there would definatley have been at least one gpmg.
Also further to that depending on your date, you would also have to add ECM (Electronic counter measures) and also last but not least the body armour changed too.
cheers

Italeri has/ had a modern light weapon set set with slr and the sterling mg.

Hope that helps.

hi nick

if you can get this set then it has SLRs and SMGs in it.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Italeri-Modern-Light-Weapons-Set-Model-Kit-1-35_W0QQitemZ230177488220QQihZ013QQcategoryZ1191QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem

mark

HI guys
thanks for your help. I will try to get one of those Italeri sets, Im not too keen on ordering from the USA!! Nick

in the years i spent in ulster we never ever used vehicles down on the border for fear of road side or culvert bombs, all movement was done by chopper or footsie although i dont know about 60,s or 70,s ,vcp,s were carried out by eagle flights normaly a lynx or wessex, teams consisted of bricks of four men with one or two acting as shadow or bounce units. from 1982 onwards all border movement was restricted to the above by the CLF 39 infantry brigade and passed down to all units in ulster. i spent a lot of time down on the border as we were a recce platoon forkhill, bessbrooke the super bowl, clough mountain, and i can not remember seeing any transport other than choppers or the mark one combat high, then again you could always do your dio just on any other country road. the sign says unaproved road so what the hell troops are doing there is beyond me , looks more like a propaganda shot, although we did see alot of signs saying warning sniper or warning with a explosion painted under it, these were painted up and put up by the local players. one guy i remember tried to take one down just outside newry and it blew up. nick if it was you who wanted the slr,s i aint forgotten and still tracking them down. cheers .

i got to thinking mate,
if the slr's are a problem then why not do the same diorama but in more recent years and replace the pig with a saxon
http://www.accurate-armour.com/ShowProduct.cfm?manufacturer=0&category=20&subcategory=63&product=42

just a thought, anyway good luck, this will be one i'll be very interested in seeing built

I have a bunch of the SLRs and Sterlings out of the Italeri set mentioned above. PM me if you are interested and we can work something out.

Hi guys thanks for all your help.


Tony, yes it was me, Im sorry but I had actually forgotten myself about that. However I have managed to track down the italeri kit on the web so will probably just get a couple of them. Thanks anyway.
I think what I will do is make it slightly more 'what if' than 100% fact, i thought from the beginning it would be quite difficult to make it 100% fact (due in part to the terrible lack of modern british model kits and figures !!). It will probably be a 1980 dio with the pig and slrs and royal marines. Thanks for all the help. Nick (PS, it will probably start around Xmas sorry for the delay but i can assure you that when it starts i will be posting updates etc.)

Oh, acually one other thing I wanted to ask, would there be a sniper in the patrol as I would like to use the Accurate armour figure with the sniper rifle:

if not I will give him an SLR!! I will also use AA' figures F45 (without the bergen etc. just the gpmg), F41 F10 and possibly F44 and F43 and any others i find, possibly doing small alterations to teh AA figs and using them more than once!! here is the link to the AA figs:
[link]http://www.accurate-armour.com/showaaproducts.cfm?category=9&subcategory=54[/link]

Nick

Hi Guys
Right, for some reason this post has now been blocked from Ginos post down by the school , therefore if you would be able to pm me any replies (as otherwise I will not be able to read them). Thanks very much. Sorry for any inconvenience. Nick

How do you mean blocked?

yes we had snipers, i must say that the players were more scared of our snipes than we were of theirs, as for weapons, slr, smg, lmg, gpmg, m79, m16, shotgun, browning 9 mil, 38 spl, m 203 and long shots(sniper rifles) some of us had bipods on our slr,s and m16,s too and no body armour or helmets or berets it was hard enough bog trotting with all your gear never mind helmets and stuff !