Dear chaps
I've asked in other groups and now I'm trying here.I'm trying to find information on the incident where Lt Gorman of the Irish guards rammed a king tiger in normandy.I have about 6 photos of what is said to be Gormans Sherman next to the king tiger,but the WD number on the rear of that pictured is not the one listed for him.I know there is debate from doubters etc on wether he really did this but I'm really just trying to find out whose tank this could be.Was it put here later for photos etc.I have read many accounts now of the incident,one even states he left his tank when it was stuck,and got into another to do the ramming,but I'd like a little more evidence.Was this Sherman put there for photos later.As i think there is a shell strike visible in one photo,and I haven't read that his tank was disabled after the ramming.There is also a star on either side of the turret and I haven't been able to locate any photos of the Irish guards tanks with this marking.I hope to be building a diorama of the incident for Model military in a future issue,so any help would be gratefully received. Matt Edwards

I don't know much about this instance but it was not uncommon for T34 commanders to litterally plow into tanks and afvs, even big ones, but not sure how a sherman could get away with it without the thick sloped armor of the T34. I wouldn't think it would be impossible, especially if the Tiger B crew was firing on other targets or had an issue with the turret/gun and he took advantage of it. With a Sherman, you may actually be able to get close enough at certain angles to where the long barrel of the B couldn't come about to bear on it, and you could just absolutely deafen the crew by firing at point blank range at the hull.

Hi Matt,

What we know is the event took place. I will re-read the part of the history that outlines this event later. I think Lt Gorman fired into his own tank after the event to stop it falling into German hands, but I'll check.

However, I also read somewhere that the tanks lay in the field for over a year. I find this hard to believe for two reasons.

1. There were few King Tigers in Normandy and if one fell into the hands of the Allies they surely would have salavaged it and given it to the boffins to work on and
2. There was a shortage of parts from the day they landed. In the history it is clear that they took parts from any damaged tank they came across whether it was a Mick tank or not.

I don't know the origin of the pics you have but after 60 years it may not be possible to confirm. Colin Patterson contacted Sir John Gorman and asked him a series of questions about the event and in particular the picture and details of his tank. He kindly sent me a copy of his replies and I will check back for you.

I'd agree that the stars don't fit in with the Mick markings and as I said before I am not 100% convinced by the pic but who knows. I'll get back to you later.

Cheers

Al

On the other hand, the tank seems to conform with the Irish Guards practice of putting the squadron sign on the hull side and has a mounting on the glacis for a spare road wheel. It has clearly been knocked out as the sponson bottom has blown out, which is often seen on knocked out Shermans.

The WD number doesn't match , true, but the recorded one was for the beginning of June and the action was in mid-July. I've had a quick flick through the Irish Guards photos on the IWM database, but again they date to end July/beginning August, and markings may have changed after Goodwood.

So this hardly rules the photo out yet.

David

The IWMs online photodatabase doesn't seem to contain anything that could plausibly be an IG Sherman in their Goodwood photos.

A trawl of Missing Links and the Axis History Forum searching for 'Gorman' brought up several threads with a few more photos from different angles, which confirm that the Sherman had a full set of applique on the hull front, sides and turret; postings also suggest that Gorman had borrowed another tank as his own had bogged down. One of the photos is an aerial one which shows both tanks are out in the middle of a field, if the ground level-photos are a reconstruction (which I doubt) then an awful lot of effort was put into staging them.

David

Thanks for all your answers.I eagerly await any more details you have to add.I forgot to mention that there is what looks like a large 4 painted towards the rear of the turret.Any ideas? I wont be starting the scene untill about feb 08 but I'd like to do the incident justice.
Thanks again, Matt

Highly likely that 4 is the Troop Number, specially since Lt Gorman was 4 Troop leader. It also looks like there's a board mounted on the rear of the turret bin which may well carry the Troop Number and a letter designating the position of the tank tank within the troop. Other sites read the WD number as being T232244 (FWIW); this doesn't appear on the list of known IG Shermans, though there are some in the same ballpark.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=7724&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=70582&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

David

Ta David
I was looking at the board to the rear of the turret.Could it be part of the rear deck? It seems a little large.I'm looking forward to what Al can tell us from his notes.
Thanks again. Matt

Hi Guys,

Here's an extract from the anthology 'The Armoured Micks' 1941 to 1954

Quote

On the way forward Lt Gorman's tank bogged down in marshy ground. He ordered two of his tanks to carry on, whilst a third, commanded by Sgt Harbinson from Kilrea helped recover the Troop Commander's Sherman. The pair were therefore separated from the rest of the Squadron when they reached the scene of the battle, around the village of Cagney...."

Unquote

So this says, yes his tank bogged down but also that it was recovered and both he and Harbinson reached the scene of battle together. So no change of tank, that I can see, well not until you read the history, see below.

Quote

...... You're looking at the amareurishness of this, and I really feel...........I don't know how on earth I survived the war..... I suppose we got better as time went on. But I was so determined to get on, that I hadn't got out of my tank and looked around the corner to see what was there, that was not my mood at all. But there was a Tiger Royal, the only one, actually seen in Normandy, as it turned out. There was a bit of good luck: it was ar right angles to us, with its gun ninety degrees away from us, It was starting to reverse out of a hedge when we saw it. Now I had already discussed this with Corporal Baron, what would we actually do? Ours was a paper-thin tank with a gun that couldn't possibly penetrate it. And we had decided - sounds mad I know - we decided the only thing to do was to use the naval tactic of ramming. And so, as soon as we saw this I ordered "RAM". Though gunfire couldn't do much good at all, my Gunner, Guardsman Scholes, managed to get one shot off. Then he put a high explosive shot into the breech, as I wanted to hit the Royal Tiger while we were going at it, for three hundred yards. I suppose - but very fast, I mean, the Sherman can do fourty miles an hour, and I tell you Corporal Baron went as fast as he could, because, behind the Royal Tiger, and to our right now, were three ordinary Tigers, just in a line supporting the great beast. We hit the Royal Tiger on the left rear, very hard, and just before we hit Bert Scholes put a shot, a very explosive shot into the back of the Tiger, which of course would create an awful lot of noise and worry to the people inside the tank. So there we were now, both tanks stuck together, and its gun had traveresed round, a slow travers because of the great weight of the gun. And I remember op this moment, to this day, that when the gun hit our turret, the 'clang' it made. But the moment we were in that position, the Germans piled out of their tank. I couldn'd do anything more, so I ordered my crew to bail out as well, .........

There was a very nice chap from Belfast called Agnew, who was my front gunner; and becasue the German gun was blocking his escape hatch, he had to do a very complicated exit.......

Unquote

The anthology was published in 1997. A couple of things stand out here, one his memory of the barrel of the 88 striking the turret and the fact that Guardsman Agnew didn't escape at the same time as himself and the 3 others his hatch being blocked by the German gun. (was it the 88 or the 75mm?) . In fact he goes on to say that Agnew jumped into the trench over on the right were the Tiger crew were taking cover, realised his mistake:

Quote

So he saluted them gravely and moved away; fast!"

Unquote

David yip the 4 could be for 4 Tp, but I haven't seen any other pics showing troop numbers that way, nor have I seen any pics showing the allied star on the turret side of IG tanks. That doesn't mean it isn't an IG tank it's just not marked like the rest!


Colin Pattterson contacted Sir John in 2005 and sent him a picture of the vehicles on the Internet site. I'll ask Colin if he would mind me sharing this info.

Now to complicate matters here's an extract from 'A History of the Irish Guards in the Second World War' by Desmond Fitzgerald, page 380

Quote

Lieutenant John Gorman had bogged his tank whilst crossing the stream and his troop had stayed with him. It was firmly stuck, and there was nothing to do but leave it there and transfer himself into 'Ballyragget' one of his two other 75mm tanks.

Unquote

So according to the history the troop was still together and Gorman's tank left in the stream. whilst he transfered to 'Ballyragget'.

Quote

"Ballyragget" crashed through the thin hedge and careered down the slope towards the Tiger.

Unquote

Just prior to this it says the Sherman's gun jammed and that after he walked along to the Orchards round Cagney where he found the troop 17pdr. No mention of the explosive shot, prior to the ramming, no sign of a slop to career down!

It goes on to say that:

Quote

the gunner took a deep breath and tried again. "Well done! Two hits on the turret; now put one into the new Tiger." Three seconds later both the disabled Tiger and the Sherman were burning brightly. The following day, and the following year, they were still there, to be seen by the curious. .................. It was a remarkable sight - the Sherman jammed into the side of the Tiger it's turret only a few inches from the barrell of the 88mm gun.

Unquote.

Even given that the history is written for dramatic effect there is clearly a difference here. Did Gorman's tank get left in the stream and the remaining 3 advance together or did he send two tanks forward and salvage his own as stated in the Anthology.

According to the history both the Tiger and Sherman were left burning after he fired into them with the 17pdr.

Personally I'm inclined to go with the Anthology as this is a record of what those taking part said about theie experiences.

The 17pdr belonged to Sgt Workman of 4 Tp who had been killed by a solid shot which had taken his head off but left the tank undamaged, so it must have been reasonably close by.

Matt, I can only suggest you get both the History and the Anthology and make up your own mind based on the evidence. The tanks in the pictures don't look like they have been on fire and neither does the 88mm look anywahere near the turret of the Sherman. The tank name 'Ballyragget was on the side and front of the tank.

As I said these events took place over 60 years ago, The picture may well be Ballyragget I honestly have no idea.

Cheers

Al

Sounds interesting. Is Lt. Gorman still alive? It might be interesting to contact him, if he is still living.

Ahh the joys of evaluating historical sources - makes me glad I'm an archaeologist

To me both the tanks look very burnt out, the Sherman has lots of smoke staining around the squadron sign, blown sponson floor hanging down over the front bogey and (apparently) the rubber has been burnt off the roadwheels on the middle bogey. The Tiger B is toast, probably the best view is the third photo in the first Axis History Forum link above, where extensive patches of zimmerit have burnt off.

Here's a link I posted in the original thread in the Diorama DG for anyone who missed it

http://mmcalc.tripod.com/Shermans/Ballyragget/Ballyragget_at_Goodwood.html

David

Thanks again Al
I really do appreciate your help in this matter.It would be great if your friend C Patterson could shed any more light on the incident. Thanks again,Matt

The TII has suffered a massive internal explosion. The hull top plate holding the drivers hatch has completely blown off and the joint between the glacis and the side plate has 'popped'.

Hi David,

Ah the eyes of an archaeologist. Well there you have it, I can't tell much from ther granie pic I have. You are saying then that this is definately Lt Gorman's tank? That's OK by me.

Perhaps someone painted the star on after the event, it looks very white for a tank that has been burning! I'm surprised it didn't blow up completely with all that ammo on board. I wonder who moved the turret around on the King Tiger, or perhaps that was just Sir John's imagination. lol. lol

If you look at the original listing you'll see that 4Tp had 2 Mk Vs and 2 Fireflies and a Mk V Dozer just before embarkation. This may well be the 3rd Mk V that they should have had which is why it's not on the original listing having arrived after the move to the coast was made. Just a thought as I believe armour was still arriving with units right up to embarkation. The only question then that remains is did the tanks move forward as a Troop or in sections once the bogged down tank had been recoverd, well that's if it was recovered.

Matt if the experts say this is Lt Gorman's tank I'd go with that, as with any reported event there will always be differences in the story, depending on who is telling it and when it gets told. There would seem to be more details that match than details that don't. Enjoy the build and I'll look forward to seeing the finished product.

Cheers

Al

Why are there two versions of Gorman's own story? Seems like the turret traversing and hitting the sherman and the blocked hatch are in one but not the other??? The tripod version between he and Thaysen's versions seem to jive with allowing the normal minor inconcistancies in the fog of war. If the one 'verson' were true with the barrel hitting the turret, it probably would still be there against the turret. The page with the combined stories of Gorman and Thaysen seem the most reasonable.

Being engaged in tank combat and then suddenly finding yourself out and on your feet in the middle of an armor battlefield might cloud clear memories of what exactly happened after, but they both seem like they are on the same page. Seems to make sense that when two opposing tank crews find themselves running around together 'naked' in a field you might not be able to quickly figure out exactly what the hell to do with each other

Hi Al

Archaeologists have loads of ways of saying 'maybe'

There are still lots of holes in the evidence, like that dates on which the photos of the wrecks were taken, but on the whole the pictures seem to match the events. The Sherman has markings and fittings that mostly match what we would expect for a tank of No 2 Squadron, 2nd Battalion IG (Armoured). The odd additions to the markings may have been added for Goodwood (apparently white turret roofs were also specified - wonder if it has one of those?). I can't say for sure that it's Lt Gorman's tank but it's reasonable to suggest that it is. Further evidence may of course prove me entirely wrong.

As to the position of the Tiger B's gun, it may have been moved after the battle, we could speculate that the unit fitters assessed the Sherman to see what could be salvaged (the spare wheel is gone off the glacis for example), but who really knows?

Memory is a very fickle thing, I seriously doubt that I could recall an event and tell it the same way twice. Different things come to the front of your mind every time you remember something.

David

Cheers to you all
I'll be starting the build in the new year,and will post when done.Thanks again.Matt

Found this if it's of any use:

Whilst taking part in Operation Goodwood east of Cagny, Lt John Gorman who was a Troop Commander in the 2nd Armoured Battalion was probing forward in his Sherman tank 'Ballyragget' when suddenly he found himself broadside to a German King Tiger , the massive German tank that no-one had yet seen. On seeing the tank he gave the order to fire his 75mm gun at it but it just bounced off the armour of the great German monster. On giving the order to fire again he was informed by the gunner that the gun was jammed and could not fire again. By now the German Tiger Tank was traversing his 88m gun onto the defenceless Sherman tank. On seeing this Lt Gorman ordered his driver L/Cpl James Brown to ram the Tiger Tank. Ballyragget struck the German tank amidships disabling the tank and causing it's crew to bail out. After seeing his own crew to saftey, Lt Gorman commandeered a Firefly, 'Ballymena', whose commander had been killed and continued to fire at the Tiger tank with his new-found 18 pounder gun until it's destruction was complete. For this action Lt John Gorman was awarded the Military Cross and his driver L/Cpl James Brown was awarded the Military Medal. http://



Found here if the picture link doesnt work:
http://www.irishguards.org.uk/pages/poems/stories.html

You mean this?

http://www.mfers420.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=343&sid=9bc5e473c5030ef02a9e3e9c03d78a06




Jeff