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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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When is someone gonna make this beast in 1/35
xFOX_HOUNDx
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North Carolina, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 02:31 AM UTC
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/152x2.htm

What a monster!
KCBuilder
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Missouri, United States
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 02:36 AM UTC
Holy moly. This is truly a spectacular monster. A double barrelled howitzer??!? Incredible.

xFOX_HOUNDx
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 02:56 AM UTC
I have read that the Panzerhaubitze can make 5 shells land on a target simoultaniously by first firing at a high trajectory the lowering it (x) amout of degrees for every shot thereafter. Imagine the Russians utilizing that strategy with this gun! 10 shell on target at the same time!!! OH the humanity!
kevinb120
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 03:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have read that the Panzerhaubitze can make 5 shells land on a target simoultaniously by first firing at a high trajectory the lowering it (x) amout of degrees for every shot thereafter. Imagine the Russians utilizing that strategy with this gun! 10 shell on target at the same time!!! OH the humanity!



They say the replacement for the Paladin should be able to fire 10 rounds per minute and put most if not all on target at the same time. The russian one would make a great model though The US one will be kinda boring with mostly lightweight build and rubber tracks. Is it just me or does the Russian one look like a giant paintball gun?
NebLWeffah
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 03:15 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have read that the Panzerhaubitze can make 5 shells land on a target simoultaniously by first firing at a high trajectory the lowering it (x) amout of degrees for every shot thereafter.



I've seen a 'fantastic war machines' type program on the tube that talks about the Abrams in the same way. I don't remember if it fired 5 rounds or 3 or 8, but all landed on the target at the same time by firing at a higher angle and then reducing the angle for each quick shot thereafter. Apparently most modern tank gun systems can do a very similar thing.



Bob
kevinb120
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 03:53 AM UTC
Weaponology covers the Pzh2000 pretty well(military channel). They actually show 4 of them all landing 5 rounds each at the same time. In one volley they drop smoke then the rounds. Pretty awesome stuff..
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 04:32 AM UTC
The Paladin can do the same, I have seen it done. It just takes a good FDC to figure out the calculus of it and a well-trained gun crew to get the rounds off at the right time.

Also, everything I have seen on this new Russian system is that it was only experimental and only a couple were built. It will not be going into production or use by the Russian army. It really wasn't an advantage over a singly-barrel system either since you had to wait for the first gun to stop moving in recoil and hull shake to fire the second gun accurately.
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 06:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I have read that the Panzerhaubitze can make 5 shells land on a target simoultaniously by first firing at a high trajectory the lowering it (x) amout of degrees for every shot thereafter. Imagine the Russians utilizing that strategy with this gun! 10 shell on target at the same time!!! OH the humanity!



nothing really new about that, and (assuming that it's the truth) if the gun really has a 31mile range (I wouldn't bet the farm on it) it should be well able to have 25 rounds in the air before the first one hits. So with that in mind moving the barrel would really mean very little. A reasonably good 155mm towed gun from the Vietnam era would be able to easilly put six rounds in the air with six different targets in about a minute (think zone sweep). But a good crew will do all nine rounds in about a minute with nine different targets. Not at all impressed. Lastly being as it's an SP and no one's inside the turret; how does one make error correction due to displacement from recoil?
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 06:45 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The Paladin can do the same, I have seen it done. It just takes a good FDC to figure out the calculus of it and a well-trained gun crew to get the rounds off at the right time.

Also, everything I have seen on this new Russian system is that it was only experimental and only a couple were built. It will not be going into production or use by the Russian army. It really wasn't an advantage over a singly-barrel system either since you had to wait for the first gun to stop moving in recoil and hull shake to fire the second gun accurately.



Good thought Gino,
Here's something to think about; all good artillary pieces towed,spg,naval, or whatever you can come up with reside on a three point suspension system. It takes three points to make a perfect plain, but four or more will kill it. The perfect plain is the key to accurate indirect fire. Now you've put twin cannons of 152mm in the turret. It would be nearly impossable to put both guns on the same plain. Also Russian SPG's are not known to lockup the suspension system and carry an internal brake system (for a further lockup). So with all this mumbo jumbo I think what we see here is a 31 miles line of sight only SP. In otherwords if you can't see it, you ain't gonna hit it. But on the otherhand, assuming that you have the first round within five hundred yards, then all you would have todo is keep firing on the same deflection and quadrant. Those rounds will be all over place.
gary
trickymissfit
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 06:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I have read that the Panzerhaubitze can make 5 shells land on a target simoultaniously by first firing at a high trajectory the lowering it (x) amout of degrees for every shot thereafter. Imagine the Russians utilizing that strategy with this gun! 10 shell on target at the same time!!! OH the humanity!



They say the replacement for the Paladin should be able to fire 10 rounds per minute and put most if not all on target at the same time. The russian one would make a great model though The US one will be kinda boring with mostly lightweight build and rubber tracks. Is it just me or does the Russian one look like a giant paintball gun?



there actually is no replacement for the M109 in the works. The Crusader was cancelled plus two others that we no very little about. At this time there is no money going into SPG development, and from what I've heard the forgien built ones are not really as good as what we are using right now. the new SPG is likely to use a totally different main gun than anythying currently out there, and expect it to have a really radically different drive train (I mean really really different). The real problems encounted with the Crusader and a couple similar ones were weight and drivability. The other two were cancelled for other reasons. The new track if the money ever comes, will be a very revised version of the two unknown ones.
gary
xFOX_HOUNDx
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 07:28 AM UTC


I believe this ,or a varient of, is what they are looking at to replace manned SPG's. The NLOS-C.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 08:20 AM UTC
The NLOS-C is the only new SP Howitzer under development. It may or may not replace the Paladin. It really isn't that big of an improvement over it in range nor accuracy. It does have an autoloader and the crew stays inside the hull though, the verdict is still out whether those are improvements or not. It is the only part of teh Future Combat System (FCS) that is currently being funded and built. It will most likely augment towed arty since it is specifically designed to be C-130 transportable, more fuel effecient and carry its own ammo so it doesn't require a long supply train.

We shall see.
kevinb120
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Posted: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 08:33 AM UTC
Thats the one I saw. I think it puts more then 5 on the target at once. Like I said, not very inspriring for a model though.
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
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Posted: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 05:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The NLOS-C is the only new SP Howitzer under development. It may or may not replace the Paladin. It really isn't that big of an improvement over it in range nor accuracy. It does have an autoloader and the crew stays inside the hull though, the verdict is still out whether those are improvements or not. It is the only part of teh Future Combat System (FCS) that is currently being funded and built. It will most likely augment towed arty since it is specifically designed to be C-130 transportable, more fuel effecient and carry its own ammo so it doesn't require a long supply train.

We shall see.



that design has been around for quite awhile, and doubt it's going anywhere soon. What they are looking seriously at is cannon that dosn't use powder charges as we all know. We've already done the prototypes, and the results were very promising. But no where near ready for further development. Fuel economy is the hot item right now, and look for the next generation to be a hybred electric drive similar to what you are now seeing in city transit busses. Down at Bragg we tested several prototype SPGs that used the same basic gun used in a late M109, and also the to a thermo-electric & a liquid propellent. The one thing they are after is barrel & breech life. It's well know that you can shoot a thousand rounds without doing anything to the breech on the last two setups. Plus there's very little recoil (see where trhey are going?) Pushing a 100lb. projo at a higher velocity than a 175 gun with a zone three charge, and about 20% of the recoil you'd get from a charge seven white bag. This is the future. With the electric drive and thermo-electric cannon your looking at punching 6" diameter holes in the very best armor (4" or more) at 2000 yards. The plates looked like theyed been put in a punch press!
Back to the money issues a second. Right now all the big ticket money is going into the AAAV project for the Marines and also the Royal Marines. Production should be started by now, as all the machinery has been bought to build this one along with the tooling. The drive train is very complicated, and close to twice the size of an M-1 tank. This track is about as radical as anything we've built, and is is fast in open water that it'd be a task to adjust on it with conventional cannon.
gary
blaster76
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Posted: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 11:57 AM UTC
The firing multiple rounds an hitting the same target simultaneously is one of those neat parlor tricks the Army likes to show off at shoots and stuff to impress people. I saw it done with a towed 105mm back in "75 so this isn't new technology or gee whizz stuff. The only advantage the twin gun thing may have is being able to punch out a couple of rounds before it is time to scoot. After all GSR and counterbattery make life hell for redlegs. Still I have to agree, this would make for a eral interesting model kit, but as it isn't WW2 German you can forget that idea.
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