Hi all,
Having just read the review by S.Zaloga of the Academy M7 Priest, Im going to put mine in the bin, less the running gear!!

my question is , can I use the running gear from the priest, on the DML Sherman III, and turn it into a british early Sherman II, would this work, or am I barking totally up the wrong tree!!!!!

thanks in advance for all help,

malc.

are you just missing the parts or trying to change the sherman it's self? cause I have sherman spairs from my DML M4A3 BOB VVSS

Hey Malcolm,
I assume you actually meant you want to convert the DML Sherman III (M4A2) to a Sherman I (M4) like those used in North Africa by British units.
The Sherman I & II had welded hulls and the Sherman II (M4A1) was a cast hull.
What photos I can find of Sherman I's in NA show them having VVSS suspension with trailing arms, not like the early VVSS available on the Academy M7 Priest and M3 Lee.
I'm not sure if you could use the Academy suspension with the DML hull.
Perhaps someone has photos or references for Sherman I's with the early VVSS.
Cheers

jjumbo

jjumbo is correct about the Sherman types. In addition, the 8th Army Sherman I's and III's did have the M3 style VVSS, dirrect vision blocks and the 3 piece nose. The Sherman III's that were in Syria and Tunisia with the other British units seemed to have the cast nose and the early M4 style VVSS. Many of the M4's serving with the US Army in Tunisia were dirrect vision, with both 3 peice and cast noses and M3 and M4 VVSS. It really is anyones guess what was in service at the time.

Shermans can be bewildering, even to those of us who have been building them for a long time. So the question is, what, and where, do you want your Sherman to be?

Malcol, no you cannot add M3 bogies to a Sher III as depicted in the DML kit and turn it into an early Sher II (I am assuming this was a typo for early Sher III which is also not achievable. If you convert the hoods to direct vision ones then yes it is possible for the very earliest issues of the Sherman III. The majority issued to the 8th Army had M4 bogies and a 1 piece nose.

Jumbo & others, there were NO Sherman 1's serving with the British in NA, they used M4A1 and M4A2 with Direct vision hulls. During the Tunisian Campaign the later Sherman III without dv was introduced in the Uk 1st Army. The earliest Sherman III dv had both a three piece transmission cover and the M3 bogies, the majority had early m4 bogies and one piece tranny covers.

The US units used a collection of m4 and m4A1 shermans with both m4 and m3 bogies and a mix of dv and non dv hulls.

I repeat there were NO Sherman 1 (M4) serving with the 8th or 1st (UK) armies in Nth Africa. There are many incorrect captions in books such as the Osprey Sherman in British Service and even in recent books like Images of war - The Sherman Tank.

Cheers
AL

Oops, typo, AL is right on the 8th Army, I left off an "I". I will use the US id from now on, it's easier for me to get the variants correct. Is there data on what Sherman tank types the British Army had in North Africa and Tunisia? This is just plain old curiosity on my part.

Cheers guys, thought as much, Im way off
thanks for all you help.

malc.

Thanks for the heads up Al.
I wasn't sure if the Brits had any Sherman I's in North Africa.
Yeah, the only purported photo of a "Sherman I" in NA that I could find was in an ancient copy of The Sherman Tank in British Service by Osprey.
It was a side view showing an early M4 suspension but there was no views of the front or rear hulls which would be dead giveaways.
Cheers

jjumbo

I have the Osprey book also. I keep it more for nostalgia than anythinge else. I do have another book with the same pictures and the tanks identifed as M4's (Sherman I) are all M4A2's (Sherman III). The one that shows the engine being worked on is an M4A1 (Sherman II). Per Hunnicutt, the M4A2 was the first of the welded hull tanks to be built, so there were more available in 1942 and '43. The British did get over 2,000 M4's, but all the references for North Africa show a dominance of M4A2's with a smaller number of M4A1's.

As a suggestion for the original question. Why not get the new Tasca M4A1 and use the suspension on that model. Then you would have a typical M4A1 that was available in North Africa, Sicily and Italy. More common in US service though. If only we had that DV kit, then we could build up some nice 8th Army tanks.

8th Army Shermans can be a bit contentious but are really not to bad to fathom. They used only two sherman types: M4A1 and M4A2. The original "swallows" were M4A1 DV with M3 bogies and a couple of really early ones with rotor gunsight and M2 barrell with counterweight (I stress figures in the ones & two's. The M4A1 seems to have stayed pretty constant throughout bein DV with M3 suspension. The M4A2 evolved from the original 3 piece nose, M3 supension and DV
hull to a DV hull with early M4 suspension with symetrical skids and one piece nose. These seem to be the major Sherman type by Tunisia serving alongside the M4A1's.

The 1st Army arrived in theatre (Tunisia) with a mix of late model Crusaders III's in 26 Armd Bde. These were quickly replaced or supplemented by M4A2 with one & three piece nose, M4 Suspension and Cast hoods with persicopes (not DV). These are easy to tell apart from the 8th Army vehicles as the base colour is OD as opposed to Desert Pink, Pale Stone etc on the 8th Army vehicles. The other recognition point is that unlike the 8th Army vehicles they did not have sunshield rails along the side. One of these vehicles of 16/5 lancers is ID'd as an M4 in the Osprey book which unfortunately has a lot of M4 ID attributed to M4A2 and M4A4. 26 Armd brigade
used Mud to tone down their Dark Shermans as they got closer to the coast.

Recommended refrences are:
"Codename Swallow" by Dennis Oliver from Mushroom Publications
http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/britain/codenameswallowbookreviewgp_1.html
http://www.ipmsusa2.org/Reviews/Books/Historical-Bio/mushroom_codename_swallow/mushroom_codename_swallow.htm

"British Sherman tanks " by Dennis Oliver from Concord Publications - Armour at war 7062

https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/2374
Dennis has teamed up with Mike Starmer and their first book, "The New Breed" from Factory Publishing due any day now (literally)

http://thefactorypublishing.com/live/

I must confess I have an association with Dennis so may be a little biased. I hope to have a review of this book up by weeks end.
Al

Sir,
you know your stuff!!!

cheers mate,
malc.

It is odd, but my post from this morning vanished. I must have hit the wrong button.

Al, I will check out the references. I am curious when the M4A4's got into combat. I have looked for a breakdown of service, but I must be looking in the wrong place or have over looked it. Any ideas? This is just one of those little things that I have bugging me.

AFAIK the first M4A4 to see service (going of photos I have found) were Canadian Vehicles in Sicily and Italy. The Canadian Units were of the 1st CanArmy tank Bde and consisted of the:
Ontario Regt
Three Rivers Regt and
The Calgary Regt (I am unsure of the regt seniorities as I do not have full access to my ref at present)

The Three Rivers Regt fought through the Sicily Campaign supporting the Canadian 1st Infantry Div. The other two regts were not closely involved in the fighting and only landed at Syracuse after its capture. Of note is the fact that the Bde joined the Invasion force direct from the UK.

The South Africans also used them in italy but I am unsure of any brit use in Italy with the M4A2 seemingly the standard issue later supplanted by the M4A1 76. There is a pic in the Concord british Shermn that looks like an M4A4 in Italy but could be a Canadian vehicle.

The old Tanks Illustrated No 20 - Allied Tanks in Italy by Bryan Perret has many good pics of Canadian and South African M4A4 in Sicily and italy. The Canadian Archives is avail online and has lots of good pics as does the IWM online gallery.

Cheers
Al

Hi Al,

I look forward to your book review. Dennis tells me that there will be secure on-line ordering soon. In the mean time he has promised to keep me a copy back.

Cheers
Kevin

Hi Kevin, PM sent. Hopefully picking it up tomorrow afternoon straight from the publishers. Review should appear this weekend if all goes well (Work & Storms permitting)
Cheers
Al

Apart from being the first to take the Sherman V into action the 1 CATB/1 CAB is also interesting in that at least two of the regiments in the brigade had painted camouflage on their Shermans. Like this tank of the Calgary Regiment photographed in September 1943



if hot-linking doesn't work

http://data2.archives.ca/ap/a/a177155-v6.jpg

By 1945 the Ontario Regiment was evidently operating Sherman IC Fireflys as I also found one of them in the Canadian Archives.

David

Al, David, thanks for the info!

Hello Al,

PM sent. Thanks I will look forward to the review.

Cheers
Kevin