Hi guys,

I'm working on a M-728 CEV with MASSTER-camoscheme ( 7th Army )
Does anyone know which engineer-units where part of the 1st Armored Division in the seventies, stationed in Germany ?

Hope to hear real soon !!



Gé Hovens

Gé Hovens - - we formed Engineer Brigades...must have been around 1985. The 1st Armored Division had one chemical company and three engineer battalions assigned to this brigade. As I recall, the 1st Armored Division had the 16th, 40th and 70th Engineer Battalions assigned. Let me know if you need anything else.
DJ

Hi Dj,

Found the same info on Globalsecurity, but i'm more interested in the enigineer units that where stationed in Germany during the seventies.
Since I want to paint my M-728 in Masster-scheme I do need an unit from the seventies.
But thanks anyway !!

Gé Hovens

Ge,
I would go with 16th Engineer Battalion. Based on the unit history, 16E was assigned to 1st Armored Division from 1957 to 1991, when the battalion was assigned to 3ID and further to the 3rd Engineer Brigade as part of "E Force" in 1992. So that should get you started. I would vuisit the 1st Armored Division Museum's site on the web and ask them for sure.

DJ was only off by 7 years, which is pretty good for the old guy... I will catch hell from him for that comment but I need to continue to keep him on his toes...

John

John-- I think you are right about the 16th. I know the 2nd Armored Division had the 17th Engineer Battalion when I got there in 1971.
DJ

Once again, you corrected me in front of the troops. A bad move on your part (again). It will reflect. |

do you have pics of the build??

For what it's worth, the Divisional Engineer Battalion for the 8th ID in Germany during this time period (I was in the Division from 1972-1977), was the 12th Engineer Battalion.

Our vehicles were also painted in the 4 color scheme which I believe was the 7th Army MASSTER scheme to which you are referring. We went from the solid OD color to the 4 color scheme sometime around the summer of 1973 and were still in that scheme when I left in April of 1977. The 8th ID and 3rd AD were part of V Corps, and the VII Corps consisted of the 3rd ID and 1st AD, and I'm pretty sure everybody was in the same basic scheme during this period.

Tom

Gary,
I am long over that... Matter of fact, I was never worried about the ol' OER over the years. Good or bad things vcame to those that deserved it, well, in most cases...

However, DJ was the one who rescued me from the TDA/TADOC world at Knox and got me into his battalion in the $1.94 Armored Brigade way back in my lieutenant days. I can honestly say that 2-10 Cav was a unique unit, in a good way. I was able to run wild at Ft Campbell, Ft Bliss and Camp Wainwright CFB under his tutalage. It is kinda funny that 15 years later we are both hanging out on Armorama and building models...

Oh well

John

16th was in the Nuremburg area-I was in Erlangen in 2nd BDE. Dan

Gary-- I can assure you he was not worried about his OER when he should have been concerned.
DJ

PS--Believe him when he says "he ran wild." He did

I got my hands on a couple of old articles that I had gotten from my dad many years ago. (He copied them from a magazine which I don't have any information about, but both articles are entitled "Color 'N Camouflage). And unfortunately, neither article has a date.

They have some slightly conflicting info. One talks about the MASSTER scheme, indicates it was initiated in 1972 for 2nd Bde, 2nd AD. It says the Army adopted the revised program in March of 1974. This scheme calls for 45% Forest Green (FS34079), 45% Field Drab (FS30118), and only 5% Sand (FS30277) with 5% Black (FS37038).

However this is NOT the scheme which was used.

The other article mentions a "new system of vehicle camouflage now in effect within the US Army's Seventh Army in West Germany", but gives no other reference information.

This scheme also calls for 4 colors, however, it specifies that Brown (FS30117) is most prevalent at 34%, and Sand (FS30277) is next at 30%, followed by Green at 27%, and finally Black (FS37038) at 9%. This also mentions that the bumper numbers are to be applied in white.

This is the scheme which was actually used. There are patterns shown for the M113 in both articles, and it is clearly this second pattern which was used, as the Sand color was quite predominent in the actual scheme, WAY more noticeable than the 5% shown in first article.

The only thing I'm not certain of is the Green. The article says it should be Green FS34127, however, I have found that a Medium Green, FS34102 seems to look better. (They're not too different, I just think the FS34102 is a better match.)

I've used these colors in Model Master Acrylic (Earth Red 4707 for the FS30117, Armor Sand 4711 for the FS30277, and Medium Green 4734 for the FS34102) and I've been very happy with the results. Unfortunately other than a couple of old photos of my M577, some M109s, and M548s, (and the M113 in the article) I don't have the pattern charts for any other vehicles in this scheme.

As far as the timing, I know we replaced our short tube M109s with the long tube M109A1 in the summer of 1974. I know that when we went to Graf in May of 1974, all of our vehicles had been painted in this scheme, as I have some photos of my FDC track when I was FDO that year. I also have one shot of the gun line in the motor pool in Baumholder with half the guns with short tubes and half with long tubes and everything is painted, so that photo is from about July of 1974. I don't know when this scheme was replaced in Germany, but it was after 1977.


Tom

Tom-- I can relate to your run down on the various patterns we applied to the tactical vehicles. I think within 7th Army we had variations of the variations....so much for an Army of one. Regardless, I think John is right in that the engineer battalions were spliced together during WW II. It makes sense that the 1st Armored had the 16th Engineer Battalion. I know the 2nd Armored had the 17th Engineers (a fine outfit). I was in the 3rd Infantry and we had the 10th Engineers another marvelous group of talented people in support.
DJ

PS-- It hurts me personally and professionally to agree with John, but I need to encourage him from time to time.

I have to admit that I also have a fondness for the Corps of Engineers. Having spent the first 25 years (5 Active then 20 Reserve) of my Army career wearing crossed cannons (followed by 2 with crossed pistols) I found myself needing to Branch Transfer as an O6 to the Corps to be able to get a slot and the promotion. So I finished my final 3 years wearing Castles. (Not too big a stretch, since I've been an engineer in my "real" job for over 30 years, but it WAS fun attending the Officer Advance Course as a Colonel!!!)

Tom

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the replies !!!

I think it'll be a version of the 8th Infantry division, since this is one unit that is NOT already in my collection.
The other units ( 1st Inf, 1st Arm 3dr Inf. etc ) are so "common" and most known !!
Sorry if I offended anyone with that last line !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Gé Hovens

If you're looking for a nice source for decals that are specific for both the 8th ID, as well as the 12th Engineers, in white letters, and don't want to go to the trouble of putting individual dry transfer white letters/numbers one at a time (if you can find them!) I highly recommend Black Lion Decals http://www.blackliondecals.nl/index.htm right there in the Netherlands.

They've done several custom sheets for me and do a very nice job. They can make up whatever decals (stars, bumper numbers, USA Numbers, other markings, etc) you want and from my perspective, at a reasonable price.

Whohoo... I won one I appreciate the support.

Ge
Good luck on the paint job. Lets see some pics...

John

Hi Tom,

Just bought myself a whole bunch of wet decals from TruckLine-decals in Germany.
All different sizes in letters and numbers to form whatever unit you want.
Available in white and black !

Gé Hovens