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dioman13
Joined: August 19, 2007
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 01:27 AM UTC
What is up with all the heavy armour crashing through buildings and not endind up in the basements? Granted, most factories will have heavy duty supporting floors as they usually have heavy machinery and stock, but every time I see a 40 ton tank sitting there waiting in a bomb damaged house I get to wondering what the average Europian house was made of. Thinking of this as I have worked constrution in my youth I wonder if they were using ironwood. Artistic lic. is O.K. but some more realism should be used. I've seen great dio's with tanks that have broken through wood bridges and they were built for weight better than a house. Try parking a 40 ton tank in your living room and I'd bet my stash of styrene it would certainly end up in the cellar.
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 02:05 AM UTC
Based on the assumption that every house or building in Europe has a cellar no doubt 
yeahwiggie
Joined: March 24, 2006
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 02:20 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Try parking a 40 ton tank in your living room and I'd bet my stash of styrene it would certainly end up in the cellar.
Other than the value of my livingroomcontents (nice scrabbleword
) being much higher than your styrenestash (and I am only assuming this!), you could try that at my place!You bring the tank, your stash and cash for replacing my said contents, I'll bring the camera and the smile!! You'd lose!!
No serious, there are plenty of houses over here that don't have a cellar or have one not directly beneath the house.
So apart from artistic license, it is quite plausible.
p.s.
The remainder of the house collapsing on top of the tank, now that would be a different matter, all together, right??
Neo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 02:35 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Based on the assumption that every house or building in Europe has a cellar no doubt
The ground floor of most large bldg's. like factories and warehouses were and are in fact built on the ground (no basements) because of the weights / loads and costs involved.
Having been to Ireland and Germany several times I would say the older bldg's look like they are built at grade also. Some in Germany look like they have 1/2 story below grade w/ 7 or 8 steps leading up to door.
FYI:
Residential bldg's in the US don't have basements in about half the county (mostly SE & SW) slab on grade construction. Basements much more common in the N & NE.
The compressive strength of the typ. concrete in the US is 3000-3500 psi. I don't know what it is in Europe but I would assume something similar.
Henk
Joined: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 02:39 AM UTC
Yes, plenty of houses don't have cellars, or just a small larder cellar under the stairs.
As for a house collapsing on top of the tank, that would depend on the spot where the tank breaks through the wall. If the construction of the house (i.e. the outside walls) is solid enough, just knocking a large hole in the wall won't cause the (immediate ) collapse of the building. Knocking down the corner will cause substantial damage.
What is often (or should I say usually.. ) overlooked is the amount of rubble that a bombed out/collapsed building creates. Apart from a pile of brick/concrete rubble at least hip height, there must be wood, metal pipe, fabric, etc etc in there as well. Often a very nice diorama is spoiled by unrealistic or absent rubble.
As for rubble, placement of it depends on what happened to the building. Did an airborne bomb or artillery shell do the damage? The rubble will be spread wide, and pretty even.
Was it a mortar round, or tank shell? The rubble will be less spread out, and a larger pile will be created by the resultant collapse of the structure.
Oh, and if you are making rubble to go with your destroyed building, resist the temptation to add to many 45 gal. (200 liter) drums....
Severe drybrushing may be encouraged in this instance...
Cheers
Henk
As for a house collapsing on top of the tank, that would depend on the spot where the tank breaks through the wall. If the construction of the house (i.e. the outside walls) is solid enough, just knocking a large hole in the wall won't cause the (immediate ) collapse of the building. Knocking down the corner will cause substantial damage.
What is often (or should I say usually..
) overlooked is the amount of rubble that a bombed out/collapsed building creates. Apart from a pile of brick/concrete rubble at least hip height, there must be wood, metal pipe, fabric, etc etc in there as well. Often a very nice diorama is spoiled by unrealistic or absent rubble. As for rubble, placement of it depends on what happened to the building. Did an airborne bomb or artillery shell do the damage? The rubble will be spread wide, and pretty even.
Was it a mortar round, or tank shell? The rubble will be less spread out, and a larger pile will be created by the resultant collapse of the structure.
Oh, and if you are making rubble to go with your destroyed building, resist the temptation to add to many 45 gal. (200 liter) drums....
Severe drybrushing may be encouraged in this instance... Cheers
Henk
Neo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 916 posts
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 03:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What is often (or should I say usually..
The amount or rubble in a dio. in all probability cannot be overdone...
gsmith
Joined: August 11, 2007
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Posted: Friday, March 21, 2008 - 12:31 PM UTC
all points agreed on, i still go with the theory that no ALL rubble stayed put til the end of the war, so i'll give you the fact that massive amounts were created initally and in some scenes it's great or even needed, if you will concede that at times a moderate amount if done correctly can still be plausible. i think rubble amount is more up to subject to artistic freedom as long as some attempt is shown to let you know a blown up building wouldn't be as spotless as my moms kitchen. as for the tanks in the house, i have seen several pictures with a tank going through or resting under the shelter of a roof. unfortunatly i don't have any handy but i'll look for them again.
Gary,
http://smithmilitarymodeling.com
Gary,
http://smithmilitarymodeling.com
dioman13
Joined: August 19, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 12:32 AM UTC
I was under the impression that most counrty houses would have had a cellar of some type for storage of coal/wood and even food bin of some type. Most documenteries I have seen show street level buildings in the cities and I understand about most factories with supporting heavy loads. So in effect then, you say that most Europian homes would not have a cellar?
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 01:33 AM UTC
Bob
You make it sound like we all live in those nice cottages with thatched roofs and its countryside everywhere. A very stereotyped view of Europe, certainly the UK.
Just go onto the internet and spend some time looking at images you find it very different.
Whilst a "coal cellar" is a possibility, so is an outhouse in the garden. Food storage would be in a Larder before the modern fridge, just a small walk in cupboard in the kitchen or under the stairs sometimes called a Pantry. Just a cool place to keep fresh food for a short period.
Cheap housing was put up during the industrial revolution to house workers brought in from the countryside to work in the factories. Rows of terraced houses built small and as cheaply as possible to house them. We use to call them "two up two down" because that's what you had two rooms downstairs and two rooms upstairs.
Most industrial cities including London was full of this kind of housing.
In the UK for example many of these types of houses, even up to the middle of the last century, didn't have a bathroom at all and the lavatory was outside the house. You washed in the kitchen sink, and I can remember as a small child my parents filling a tin bath in the small house we lived in with hot water for us to bath in. Hot water was the cold tap, poured into a saucepan or kettle, heated on the stove and poured into a wash basin
But not all of it is like that either.
Of course there are the grand building and everything in between so rather than just assume by what experience you have of where you live or maybe some impression a fictional television program has given you of how we live I'd suggest a bit more research.
Otherwise gambling your stash on such opinions as you first expressed you'll rapidly run out of actual stuff to make.
Alan
You make it sound like we all live in those nice cottages with thatched roofs and its countryside everywhere. A very stereotyped view of Europe, certainly the UK.
Just go onto the internet and spend some time looking at images you find it very different.
Whilst a "coal cellar" is a possibility, so is an outhouse in the garden. Food storage would be in a Larder before the modern fridge, just a small walk in cupboard in the kitchen or under the stairs sometimes called a Pantry. Just a cool place to keep fresh food for a short period.
Cheap housing was put up during the industrial revolution to house workers brought in from the countryside to work in the factories. Rows of terraced houses built small and as cheaply as possible to house them. We use to call them "two up two down" because that's what you had two rooms downstairs and two rooms upstairs.
Most industrial cities including London was full of this kind of housing.
In the UK for example many of these types of houses, even up to the middle of the last century, didn't have a bathroom at all and the lavatory was outside the house. You washed in the kitchen sink, and I can remember as a small child my parents filling a tin bath in the small house we lived in with hot water for us to bath in. Hot water was the cold tap, poured into a saucepan or kettle, heated on the stove and poured into a wash basin
But not all of it is like that either.
Of course there are the grand building and everything in between so rather than just assume by what experience you have of where you live or maybe some impression a fictional television program has given you of how we live I'd suggest a bit more research.
Otherwise gambling your stash on such opinions as you first expressed you'll rapidly run out of actual stuff to make.
Alan
Henk
Joined: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 02:55 AM UTC
Quoted Text
and I can remember as a small child my parents filling a tin bath in the small house we lived in with hot water for us to bath in. Hot water was the cold tap, poured into a saucepan or kettle, heated on the stove and poured into a wash basin
'You were lucky...'
alanmac
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 03:06 AM UTC
in a broad Yorkshire accent no doubt.....
"You tell that to the kids of today and they won't believe you"
Got to be one of my all time favourite Python sketches
One version here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
Thanks for that Henk.
To be honest I'd forgotten about the bathing stuff till I started to write the post. Maybe I'd just mentally blocked it, oh the shame of it.....
Alan
"You tell that to the kids of today and they won't believe you"
Got to be one of my all time favourite Python sketches
One version here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
Thanks for that Henk.
To be honest I'd forgotten about the bathing stuff till I started to write the post. Maybe I'd just mentally blocked it, oh the shame of it.....
Alan
Plasticbattle
#003
Joined: May 14, 2002
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 04:08 AM UTC
Quoted Text
In the UK for example many of these types of houses, even up to the middle of the last century, didn't have a bathroom at all and the lavatory was outside the house. You washed in the kitchen sink, and I can remember as a small child my parents filling a tin bath in the small house we lived in with hot water for us to bath in. Hot water was the cold tap, poured into a saucepan or kettle, heated on the stove and poured into a wash basin
For reference, see any Ken Loach film!
sadodd
Joined: December 29, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 04:35 AM UTC
Bob,
Stop and consider the advances made in the years since the war. These came about mostly because of the wars. I grew up in Indiana and Texas and we never had a real basement, just crawl spaces. Heck the place my Mother lives in doesn't have a basement even in this day and age.
Stop and consider the advances made in the years since the war. These came about mostly because of the wars. I grew up in Indiana and Texas and we never had a real basement, just crawl spaces. Heck the place my Mother lives in doesn't have a basement even in this day and age.
spongya
Associate Editor
Joined: February 01, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 05:02 AM UTC
The urban, big apartment-houses in Europe usually have basements (quite big ones, actually, often with more than one levels), but the question is what happens if a tank tries to go through the first floor of a five-story house. Probably the basement is the least of their worries. Little cottage houses do not necessarily have basements, as was discussed, but it just makes you wonder. What happens if a tank does break through and finds itself a level down? What happens to the crew? They continue on foot? What would happen to the commander of the tank when he reports the accident? How can they lift out a 40-50-70 ton monster from there?
Not to mention that in the real old parts of European cities (medieval origin) you can find all sorts of tunnels and stuff under the street (most often originating from old cellars). What if one of these cave in under the weight of a tank? (Sometimes they cave in after a heavy storm...) Has it happened before? Do tankers think about these things when planning in urban environments?
Not to mention that in the real old parts of European cities (medieval origin) you can find all sorts of tunnels and stuff under the street (most often originating from old cellars). What if one of these cave in under the weight of a tank? (Sometimes they cave in after a heavy storm...) Has it happened before? Do tankers think about these things when planning in urban environments?
BorisS
Joined: October 07, 2007
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 05:38 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The urban, big apartment-houses in Europe usually have basements (quite big ones, actually, often with more than one levels), but the question is what happens if a tank tries to go through the first floor of a five-story house. Probably the basement is the least of their worries. Little cottage houses do not necessarily have basements, as was discussed, but it just makes you wonder. What happens if a tank does break through and finds itself a level down? What happens to the crew? They continue on foot? What would happen to the commander of the tank when he reports the accident? How can they lift out a 40-50-70 ton monster from there?
Not to mention that in the real old parts of European cities (medieval origin) you can find all sorts of tunnels and stuff under the street (most often originating from old cellars). What if one of these cave in under the weight of a tank? (Sometimes they cave in after a heavy storm...) Has it happened before? Do tankers think about these things when planning in urban environments?
the tank, im sure can eventually be lifted out with enough cranes, the crew may just have to sit and wait for help, the tank commander will have alot of explaining to do as to why he was driving through a house in the first place.
i believe that most militaries do not normally allow this sort of thing to happen since it damages tanks, and pisses off the population of wherever it is they are
for instance, i believe that sometimes the allies in europe were no even allowed to fire on civilian buildings unless there was a direct threat there.
sadodd
Joined: December 29, 2007
KitMaker: 270 posts
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 05:56 AM UTC
Boris,
Very true. And in some cases they are not allowed to fire on a civilian building even if there is a direct and immediate threat because there may be a need for that particular building to use to the advantage of the contacting force. Some strategic gain on the part of those who were being attacked would now go to them by leaving the building intact.
Very true. And in some cases they are not allowed to fire on a civilian building even if there is a direct and immediate threat because there may be a need for that particular building to use to the advantage of the contacting force. Some strategic gain on the part of those who were being attacked would now go to them by leaving the building intact.
Neo
Joined: January 20, 2005
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 08:37 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The urban, big apartment-houses in Europe usually have basements (quite big ones, actually, often with more than one levels), but the question is what happens if a tank tries to go through the first floor of a five-story house. Probably the basement is the least of their worries. Little cottage houses do not necessarily have basements, as was discussed, but it just makes you wonder. What happens if a tank does break through and finds itself a level down? What happens to the crew? They continue on foot? What would happen to the commander of the tank when he reports the accident? How can they lift out a 40-50-70 ton monster from there?
An average (pls. note I said average) for tanks in general would be something like:
vertical climbing ability of 36-48 inches ( 120 MM +/- )
ditch crossing capability of 100 inches ( 250 MM +/- )
fording depth (unpreped - no snorkle) of 48 inches
slope ascending ability of 45-60%
traverse of side slope of no more than 30-40%
So unless they fell all the way to the basement floor, they could prob. back out when the floor started to give way. If they fell all the way a recovery vehicle (or two) would have to knock down the wall and drag them out.
As en ex-driver of large AFVs I don't think I would drive into a building, unless really necessary. You might want to set an ambush or hide from aircraft but you would sacrifice your speed and mobility…
NEO
jimb
Joined: August 25, 2006
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 09:07 AM UTC
I've been following this thread with some interest. Which one of you is going to be the first one to model a tank sitting in the basement of a house with the crew looking at thinking "How are we going to get out of this one?". Seems like an interesting dio. Personally, my skills are not up to the challenge. Might even be kind of funny if you pull it of right.
Jim
Jim
jointhepit
Joined: May 14, 2006
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Posted: Saturday, March 22, 2008 - 09:40 AM UTC
getting it out won't be that a big problem, giving there is no enemy or deadline,just put enough jacks underthat en lift it , put block underneath, jack it again,ect ect,
bigger problem is when collapsing into the cellar it hits a supporting wall,making it tilt, then you'd have to pull it straight before starting the jacking, and seeing 4 Skdf 7's try pulling a bogged down Panther , I can image a tiger or king,would be a difficult task.
Like already stated, most small houses at that time only had a "cellar underneath the stairs, rest wa solid ground.
Factories where I live have a history off cotton, milling, ironworks, so the buildings and levels are verry heavy build,I've seen some demolishers getting grey hair once the noticed how thick and hard some pieves where.
About the other stories of a building, I guess most will still be standing, "hanging" when a tank drives through, interlocking itself and being held up by various beams ect
biggest problem I see here, is damage to a tank, a big euro building has thick brick walls, I don't think a tank commander would risk a turret damage or drivetrain, ect getting busted by a 1.5meter thick wall
nomatter how strong your panzer looks
my 2 cent
ps, there where some specially build houses, to mask Tanks from enemy sight and to give'm some protection, I saw them once I think it was in a dow about the invasion of Germany.
Greetz Pit
bigger problem is when collapsing into the cellar it hits a supporting wall,making it tilt, then you'd have to pull it straight before starting the jacking, and seeing 4 Skdf 7's try pulling a bogged down Panther , I can image a tiger or king,would be a difficult task.
Like already stated, most small houses at that time only had a "cellar underneath the stairs, rest wa solid ground.
Factories where I live have a history off cotton, milling, ironworks, so the buildings and levels are verry heavy build,I've seen some demolishers getting grey hair once the noticed how thick and hard some pieves where.
About the other stories of a building, I guess most will still be standing, "hanging" when a tank drives through, interlocking itself and being held up by various beams ect
biggest problem I see here, is damage to a tank, a big euro building has thick brick walls, I don't think a tank commander would risk a turret damage or drivetrain, ect getting busted by a 1.5meter thick wall
nomatter how strong your panzer looks
my 2 cent
ps, there where some specially build houses, to mask Tanks from enemy sight and to give'm some protection, I saw them once I think it was in a dow about the invasion of Germany.
Greetz Pit
dioman13
Joined: August 19, 2007
KitMaker: 2,184 posts
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Posted: Sunday, March 23, 2008 - 09:53 AM UTC
O.K. fellows, I conced the point. As noted about cottages, city buildings and factories ect. Question is, do most European houses in the country (exception to low land and high water tables) have a basement of some type or not. Not stereo typing any country, would it be safe to represent a house say in western France or Germany with a type of basement or not. I understand that grond water levels and fault lines would make it impossable for thier use in many places but in many documentaries you see them or what is left after a building collapses into them. I own a 109 year old brick house with a full basement but would really hate to think of parking or driving through it with a large heavy tank as I have wood floors. And yes there is a stone supporting wall that runs through the middle of it. I don't think that with the sub floor and the finished floor I would want to try it. Couldn't explaqin that one to the wife on seven sundays!
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