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Dioramas: Before Building
Ideas, concepts, and researching your next diorama.
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Need Some History Help
exigent99
Joined: July 30, 2007
KitMaker: 100 posts
Armorama: 78 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 10:19 AM UTC
Hey everyone, I'm going to be starting a new dio. I'm actually making it for a competition on another site. I need some help with the historical accuracy of my idea though. Here it goes...

The dio will be set in the Philipine Islands, after the U.S. forces return. I plan on having a team of 4-5 U.S. Marines advancing through some heavily overgrown jungle ruins. The dio will be the exact moment that the marines realize that they are not alone, and there are enemies in the surrounding ruins. The figures I have range from wary advancing to firing stances. I also plan to have the ruins partly flooded. The rest of the street, and some of the ruins will be covered in deep, murky water. There will be the top of a Sherman tank sticking out of the water.

I'm not sure if there were Shermans in the Philipines before the Japanese invaded. The Sherman would have been abandoned, left from the first occupation of U.S. forces. Also, in the second occupation, would U.S. Marines be carrying Thompsons?

On a more practical note, I can't decide if I want the Sherman to be in a river, or a stagnant pond/swamp. I'm not sure if it makes sense that the Marines would be standing on dry ground, and then 20-30 feet away, there is flood water deep enough to cover a Sherman.

If you made it this far...thanks for reading. Now, I really need some help with determining whether this is a plausible diorama idea. History buffs, I need you!! Seriously though, I would appreciate any insight on the subject. Thanks,

Matthew
18Bravo
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Colorado, United States
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 10:27 AM UTC

Quoted Text

On a more practical note, I can't decide if I want the Sherman to be in a river, or a stagnant pond/swamp. I'm not sure if it makes sense that the Marines would be standing on dry ground, and then 20-30 feet away, there is flood water deep enough to cover a Sherman.



I'll be the first to tell you I'm not much of a PTO historian, but I CAN tell you from having been in the Philippines, the scenario you describe would make perfect sense. Especially in August, when there are violent but very brief thunderstorms, followed by a baking heat that does nothing except raise the humidity to almost unbearable levels.
Finch
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New York, United States
Joined: August 03, 2005
KitMaker: 411 posts
Armorama: 273 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 10:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text


The dio will be set in the Philipine Islands, after the U.S. forces return. I plan on having a team of 4-5 U.S. Marines advancing through some heavily overgrown jungle ruins.

I'm not sure if there were Shermans in the Philipines before the Japanese invaded.

If you made it this far...thanks for reading. Now, I really need some help with determining whether this is a plausible diorama idea. History buffs, I need you!! Seriously though, I would appreciate any insight on the subject. Thanks,

Matthew



Well, there are a couple of issues with your idea but none of them show-stoppers. First, the forces that invaded the Phillipines in 1944-45 were US Army, not Marines. Second, there were no M4 Shermans in the P.I. in 1941-42. The first Sherman hadn't even come off the production line at the time of Pearl Harbor and there were very few in existence at the time of the US surrender in 1942.

But your idea is fine anyway if you swap the troops to be Soldiers instead of Marines (plus you won't need as many of them because we all know one Soldier is worth several marines) . As for a sunken vehicle, some candidates would be:
a) A brand-new M4 or M4A3 that came ashore in 1944-45
b) An old M3 light tank from 1941-42. A few of these were re-used by the Japanese.
c) An old early-production M3 halftrack or M3 75mm GMC - also used in 41-42.
d) A japanese tank - I know Type 97s were used but probably others as well.

The larger challenge here is telling the story. What exactly is going on and how will the viewer *know* what is going on? If I can make a suggestion, maybe show the US Infantry with a fairly new-looking Sherman alongside them, all looking into a huge shellhole with an old Japanese-marked M3.

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California, United States
Joined: July 20, 2004
KitMaker: 1,141 posts
Armorama: 950 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 10:34 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey everyone, I'm going to be starting a new dio. I'm actually making it for a competition on another site. I need some help with the historical accuracy of my idea though. Here it goes...

The dio will be set in the Philipine Islands, after the U.S. forces return. I plan on having a team of 4-5 U.S. Marines advancing through some heavily overgrown jungle ruins. The dio will be the exact moment that the marines realize that they are not alone, and there are enemies in the surrounding ruins. The figures I have range from wary advancing to firing stances. I also plan to have the ruins partly flooded. The rest of the street, and some of the ruins will be covered in deep, murky water. There will be the top of a Sherman tank sticking out of the water.



IIRC, the liberation of the P.I. was strictly an Army show on the ground with some close air support provided by USMC aviation assets.


Quoted Text

I'm not sure if there were Shermans in the Philipines before the Japanese invaded. The Sherman would have been abandoned, left from the first occupation of U.S. forces. Also, in the second occupation, would U.S. Marines be carrying Thompsons?



No Shermans around when the Japanese invaded in '41. They weren't produced until Spring '42. And yes, the U.S. troops could have Thompsons.

Chris "toadman" Hughes
Toadman's Tank Pictures

exigent99
Joined: July 30, 2007
KitMaker: 100 posts
Armorama: 78 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 11:30 AM UTC
hmmm....ok, the Army instead of Marines isn't a big deal. If anyone has some helpful links to what the uniforms in that arena would have looked like, that would be great.

I really want the dio to be in some overgrown ruins, and I want the vehicle to be in water. Reason being, the dio is for a competition, and the rules say that the terrain in the scene must be "reclaimed by nature". Therefore, the overgrown ruins, and the flooded tank are crucial to the qualification.

The Sherman wouldn't have been there during the first occupation, but is it feasible that it was there during the second occupation, then got abandoned, flooded, etc. The scene is still feasible in that aspect, correct?
Finch
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New York, United States
Joined: August 03, 2005
KitMaker: 411 posts
Armorama: 273 posts
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 - 03:44 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The Sherman wouldn't have been there during the first occupation, but is it feasible that it was there during the second occupation, then got abandoned, flooded, etc. The scene is still feasible in that aspect, correct?



Sure. Fighting in the PI lasted quite a long time, from Oct/Nov 44 or so (?) till mid 1945, although I am not sure if any particular island was fought upon for very long. Gotta bone up I guess. One cool aspect of the PI fighting is, a lot of it was urban - not something you see often in PTO dioramas. So no problem on a wrecked building.

Just so you know, the Shermans used by the Army in the PI were mostly M4A3 (75mm, wet) and M4 composite-hull types. So if you are planning on maybe using Verlinden's 'sunken Sherman' that's an M4A2, not suitable for this setting.

You might get away with using the DML "Pusan Perimeter" figure set. I am not certain but maybe someone else can weigh in on that.

BobCard
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Florida, United States
Joined: August 09, 2006
KitMaker: 1,008 posts
Armorama: 847 posts
Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 02:26 AM UTC
If your looking for references and History;
[Return to the Philippines
The Liberation of the Philippines: Leyte, Luzon, et.al.]


Some great info,
Good Luck with your project,
Bob
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