Hello, I think, that it will interest somebody...

It is said generally, that in 1939, Poland has been defeat by Germans by their superiority, etc.
But truth is such, that Polish Campaign would last any longer and could have other end, if not Soviet treacherous attack on Poland at 17th September 1939.
Exactly it has weigh on fates this campaign.
Poland must fight on two fronts and has lost back in East Poland.
In many places, battles with Soviets lasted to 2-3 October 1939(with Germans to 6 October 1939). They have incurred big losses(hide in reports), taking into account, that they combat with not numerous Polish troops - most often with reserve and spare units. Whole Polish divisions combat on German front.
For example: Soviets lost 42 tanks and about 60-80 armoured cars and 429 tanks that broke down - there are losses of armoured brigades ONLY.
But yet in each cavalry brigade and infantry division were organic tanks battalions. Their losses are unknown. But with certitude there was great than armoured brigades, for example: in battle of Szack, Poles have destroyed 10 - 12 tanks of 411th Tank Battalion from Soviet 52nd DS.
Interesting episode are fights with Soviets about Polish cities - Grodno, Wilno, Tarnopol...
It has come for encounters Polish tanks(Renault R 35 and Hotchkiss H 35) with Soviet armoured units.
Also it has come for German - Soviet fights...

If you have any questions about this theme - I try answer

Some photos:

Destroyed T-26, Poland 1939




Destroyed BT-2, Poland 1939


T-28 in Lwów, Poland 1939


Detroed T-37 tanks, Poland 1939



Destroyed BA-10 in Wołkowysk, Poland, 20th September 1939


Destroyed BT-5, Poland 1939


Adam

Adam,

It's good having you here bringing this obscure part of the war to our attention. There are turning points in any historical setting, and Poland 1939 is a time when bravery and hard fighting could still make a difference against aggressors armed with light tanks, not the heavy armor of later on.

Americans tend to forget as a group that the Soviet Union fought off Hitler for years before we were even in the fight. Imagine what we would've faced if he hadn't invaded Russia and the full force of the Wehrmacht was fighting in North Africa or waiting behind the Atlantic Wall?

Please keep telling us more about Poland and its struggle.

Bill,

Poland - one of main allies, has been left by her allies (France and Great Britain), has caused that allies wasted a chance on fast end of war in 1939.

If you know, that France and Great Britain knew, if Soviet Union planned attack on Poland?
France and Great Britain knew secret protocol for Ribbentrop - Molotov pact and they have not warned Poland about it!

There is sad paradox of history, that country which by treacherous attack has caused decay of Poland in 1939, country which has murdered many Poles, which has purposely executed Polish officers and intellectuals (about 20 000), that this country - Soviet Union - has become great 'ally'

But Poland , which first has said NO for Hitler, which has put everything on one card in 1939, which soldiers fought on almost all WWII fronts, which had fourth largest army in WWII, which has broken code of Enigma(Poles has transfered their achievements for allies along with copies of Enigma in 1939) - Poland has been forgotten and devoted by her allies under new communist occupation...

By next 45 years, communist propaganda tried to minimize and put down Polish merits in WWII.
Theme of Soviet aggression on Poland in 1939 wasn't in whole...

Also in the world, from political respects, it forget about Polish ally.
In course of time, emerged many false myths about Poland and completely false image of her history(particularly in WWII)...
Even today, it has been changed not much...

Adam

Hi Adam,

I like doing Polish armor and would like to do a Polish H35. I don't have any references for the camo and markings, though. Can you steer me in the right direction? Thanks!
Best,
Matt

It's always cool to see images from the Polish theater. Neat pics! Thanks for posting them.

-YL

Hello again Adam, I see by the photos that you have posted before and the amount of knowlege that you have for the history of Poland in WWII that in my opinion you should write the Polish History of WWII to enlighten those of us who are less knowlegable in this area. I for one would buy a copy and with the photos that are in your library it would be a great book.

ROBERT

I be glad , that I can present you something curious
Robert - maybe I can make it someday - I will send you first copy

Matt - about Hotchkiss H 35 in Polish service from 1939 - Poland has bought 3 tanks for tests in 1939. They have arrived for Poland along with supply of first part(49 tanks) of order on 100 Renault R 35 tanks(second part of order - it has been halted in transport in Romania) . H 35 took part in fights in Polish Campaign(battles with Red Army, Germans and Ukrainian nationalists). They belonged to improvised Tank Company(4 R 35 and 3 H 35).
PROBABLY, Polish H 35 was painted in standard Polish three tone pattern, but Renault R 35 was painted in French camouflage(only French olive green or three tone camouflage - without borders). Probably H 35 didn't have any markings or had only small, white French tactical markings. Renault R 35 on photos had only small, white French tactical markings on side-boards.
If you would like more information, I try to help you

Adam

ADAM

Thanks for the post on this little known event.Keep posting the photos they are great.

Cheers
Anthony

Thank you Adam, that's great information and helps me a lot!
Yeah, I agree, you have a Bron Pancerna photo book in there somewhere.....
Best,
Matt

Matt,

I haven't this book, but I have several professional books on this theme and there is my passion
I study history and really, I deal with scientific books
If you known, that in Polish 10th Motorized Cavalry Brigade used German Krupp 6x4 and Mercedes - Benz trucks?

Adam

Adam, history is full of complexities and there are rarely real heroes and villains; it's one of the enduring fascinations of WW II to have a real villain like Hitler-- even a murderer like Stalin gets some points for having led the Soviet Union out of what looked in 1941 like certain defeat. When I mentioned this thread to a Jewish friend, he replied "Jews weren't sorry for what happened to Poland because Poles were only too happy to turn us over to the Nazis."

Like I said, history is complicated.

Slovakia also took part in the invasion of Poland, correct?

didn't intend to participate in this thread as I find it too "Polish speaking" for my taste but this phrase is just revolting me

"Jews weren't sorry for what happened to Poland because Poles were only too happy to turn us over to the Nazis"

tell your friend to look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_Among_the_Nations and let him read which country citizens are the most rewarded for rescuing jews during WWII. I don't even mention the number of Poles that were shoot by Germans for helping jews. Maybe there were few accidents but Poles have NEVER collaborated with Germans like for example the French did. I personally met few people that were hiding jews during WWII. Because of people like your friend there are people in my country that feel offended by talks like this and that's why they say sometimes they don't like them. That's what one gets for helping others....
sorry for this intrusion into this thread.

Sorry Adam, I guess I spoke too American. What I meant was that given your love of the subject and all of your resources, you could write and publish a Bron Pancerna photo book!
Keep the good stuff coming!
Best,
Matt

Thanks Adam. Very interesting subject that has been neglected in many history books.

Very interesting pictures - thanks for sharing

I believe that people should refrain from blaiming entire nations for such matters. There were people helping the germans and there were people helping the jews in any occupied country during the war. Guilt should be aknoledged for those horrors that happened, but automatically classifying everyone in a country as 'guilty' as far as I'm concerned leads to unfounded hatred.
At first I too found the topic quite nationalist, but I understand it, as Adam only voices the unhappiness of a country sacrificed for the 'greater' reasons of her stronger allies. Such abnormal situations have happened time and again to smaller countries throughout history. Cechoslovakia was handed over to Hitler at the negotiation table in the hope of avoiding war.

My country suffered a similar fate after the fall of France (our strategic partener then): we lost 1/3 of the teritory to USSR (again, as a result of the Ribbentrop - Molotov pact), Hungary and Bulgaria. With foes both on the allied and axis side we were compelled to fight alongside the germans in Russia hoping that maybe Hitler would reconsider and force Hungary to give back the teritories it occupied (note that the Hungarians weren't themselvs fully satisfied, as they didn't get all the teritories they wanted and this compelled them too to fight alongside the Germans - clever foreign policy for Hitler, wasn't it?). In 1944 Romania changed sides hoping that by contribuing to the allied cause she will avoid soviet occupation - a rather treacherous affair, but a far better and complete defection than the Italian one. However the postwar borders had already been drawn by then and we were left in the 'red zone'. We weren't given allied status and in turn had to pay compensations to the Russians. During the communist regime everything about the two and a half years campaign in the east was tabu (well, except for the airwar against the USAF...), the Ribbentrop Molotov pact all but forgotten.
I don't want to point the finger, nor do I have a grudge against any of those people: there were different times, and it is over now. I just don't want such things to happen again.

Coming back to the topic , I have a question reguarding the units that escaped through Romania. How many and which were they? I know that the Romanian Army employed a number of R35 tanks the Polish troops left...

Pawel,

Unfortunately, your country has a checkered history with its Jewish citizens:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom and the Jedwabne pogram in 1941:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedwabne_pogrom

This doesn't mean that Poland and Poles were any better or any worse than most of occupied Europe. But casting blame, pointing fingers, it only ends up leading back to the dark aspects that happen in wars (My Lai, Abu Graib for the US). So let's all be careful before citing one country as better than another.

The truth, also, is sometimes hard to find. Traveling in German in the 1980s, I had a chance to talk with one of the few survivors of von Paulus's 6th Army. Most of the Germans who surrendered at Stalingrad died in Soviet prison camps, usually from tryphus. Because I speak fluent German, he and his wife invited me into their home to talk about his time on the Eastern front and see his photo collection (mostly from prison).

He insisted that frontline troops knew nothing of the atrocities being committed by the Einsatzgruppen and their mobile gas vans, or that troops from the Totenkopf Division were routinely rotated in and out of the KZ camps. Was he lying, telling me the usual German excuses of "we weren't Nazis and we didn't know any Nazis," or telling the truth? I don't know the answer.

This forum is about Axis armor. I think it's best if we focus on the technical and historical aspects of the tanks and vehicles, or little-known particulars of the campaing, and not look for moral lessons. There aren't many in wars, and there is plenty of guilt and shame to share.

A general reminder to all sides posting in this thread to please keep it civil and not drag politics or discussions of current events into the equation. There's a separate forum available for the discussion of History available on the site, please take things there if you feel the need to debate the historical political aspects surrounding the Polish campaign.

Hello everyone,

What too stormy discussion!
If it walks about Jews, then Paweł has absolutely reason!
I could write a lot about it, but better complete this theme.
However, I MUST UNDERLINE, that Poland there was sole country under occupation, which NEVER collaborated with Germans.

If you know, that in 1939 - Poland and Romania was allies? On case of war with Soviet Union...

George - yes, you are right - Slovakia took part in invasion on Poland(three infantry divisions and one speed group)- I show you some photo soon.

Daniel - Case is complicate enough, many Polish units receded on Romanian territory, if it walks about Polish Renault R 35 - at 18th September 1939 Polish 21st Light Tank Battalion has crossed Romanian border(34 tanks). Remaining(but not all) 6 tanks of this battalion, crossed the Hungarian border with 10th Motorized Cavalry Brigade. Other tanks of this battalion, they took part in combats with Red Army and Germans.
Besides, 51 R 35(second part of Polish order) tanks riding in transport across Romania for Poland, they have been halted and include for Romanian Army.
Summing up, in Romania has been placed about 90 Polish R 35 tanks.
Not counting other Polish equipment that has been placed in Romania.

Adam

Hello,

Here, photos of Polish Renault R 35 from Polish Campaign.

Tank of Polish 21st Light Tank Battalion on Romanian border:


Tanks of 21st Battalion:


Polish R 35 captured by Soviet and tested in Kubinka:


Probably Polish R 35(from improvised Tank Company) , destroyed by Germans during battle of Kamionka Strumiłowa(22 September 1939). In this fight, Polish R 35 and H 35 tanks destroyed 3 German tanks, Poles have lost one R 35. Probably this one:


Adam

Adam
Thanks for the posts, It is great to see the photos and with that in mind will have to dig out the kits and start building the early years..........

Cheers
Anthony

Great stuff Adam, keep it coming. Especially if you know anything more about the Matilda I tanks that Britain sold to Poland just before the war.

David

Hello

Thanks Anthony Yes, I think, that early years of war, really, they are curious but first of all, undiscovered. Particularly theme of Polish Campaign(I know - there is my subjective opinion )!
So, it can be great theme for diorama or single kits.

David - about Matilda Mk. I - There is very 'legendary' and controversial theme. Has no mentions in literature. Has no documents about it. This fact is known from relations of several persons. It is possible to accept, that there was actually so. And this photo...make by Germans during Polish Campaign!
I searched it long and once I have found.
Here is unique and legendary photo of Polish(on 99%) Matilda Mk. I captured by Germans in Polish Campaign:



David, if you have any informations(maybe from English publications or documents) on this theme, I would be thankful

Adam

Correct. As a nationalist pro-Nazi client state called (First) Slovak Republic gained its autonomy after Munich Agreement in March 1939 it went immediately into a clash with Hungary that ended up in early April 1939. Few months later in September 1939 it supplied some 50,000 men for the invasion of Poland attacking from the south. At the same time it also allowed Germany to use its territory for staging the troops.

For instance:

Wikipedia: Slovak Republic 1939-45
Wikipedia: Slovak Invasion of Poland 1939

Adam - the only mention I've seen about the Polish Matildas is in one by David Fletcher about British tank development between the wars. He could find very little information to go with the photo which you posted. I'll have a look at the book next time I get the chance.

David