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Armor/AFV: Vietnam
All things Vietnam
Hosted by Darren Baker
N Viet/VC Stowage
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2008 - 04:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Amazing, how many two cent inputs on this topic!
DJ

PS-- we kicked their butts!



No, you killed a lot of people, civilians and soldiers alike (this last includes your own allies and even your own troops), but you still lost.

And that's just gone up to a buck...

put italicized text here



and easy statment to make while setting home drinking tea; sir.
I spent 14 month and 21 days in I-Corps. Went thru the 1968 Tet offensive, the summer offensive, the late summer offensive as well as the fall offensive. Never fired a shot at a civilian that didn't need it. Never saw anyone else do that either, but often saw the works done by the local VC doing that.
I was never easy on the otherguy, but that was the plan. He was never easy on me as well, and of course that was his plan. I think if you really had a clue you'd already know that 90% of civilians killed were killed by people of their own race, and a large segment of them were local VC in the first place. We delt with NVA regulars 90% of the time and ate his lunch everytime we met.
Viet Cong loved to use flame throwers and hand grenades in villages collecting taxes (where do you think they got 98% of their food stuffs?), and impressing young men into their evil doings.
gary
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2008 - 04:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The U.S. military did not lose the Vietnam War. The politicians did. If acav disagrees, he needs to get better references. I was going to say more, but acav isn't going to change his mind.

No stowage on a NVA PT-76 ... yup.



a good post, but you should have added "fun to blow up" as well
gary
acav
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Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: May 09, 2002
KitMaker: 517 posts
Armorama: 290 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2008 - 04:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Acav, you're right, I intend to model a vehicle that took part in the final drive to Saigon in 1975, the "Ho Chi Minh Campaign", as it was called. The reason for this choice is, although PT-76s were deployed prior to this, from the photos I've seen, they seem to have had their markings painted out. I don't want to build an unmarked vehicle. I paid eight dollars for a decal sheet and another eight for flags, and I intend to get my money's worth!
Anyway, I really need to pick up a copy of that book, "Fall of the South." It sounds like a great resource.



If you can find them, the whole Boston Publishing series (about 20-25 volumes total) on the VN Conflict is worth having - I bought mine off ebay, but secondhand online bookstores will probably list them.

Keep us posted on the model - are you using the Trumpeter PT76?
I've been thinking about getting one of those for a while.

cheers
acav
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Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: May 09, 2002
KitMaker: 517 posts
Armorama: 290 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2008 - 05:06 PM UTC

Quoted Text

acav,
Thanks for the reply, you made what I felt was a well founded statement of facts, much better that I managed in my original post. I never replied after that because I could see that no amount of reasoned argument would change other contributors views. Possibly this kind of view would explain why America as a whole refused to learn the lessons that France paid so dearly for and went on to repeat so many of them?
just my 1p worth



No worries, Dave, and thanks for the good words.
In times of severe historical revisionism, it's worth countering with other relevant statements of fact.

It was interesting to see how quickly the thread seeking information on stowage was quickly hijacked by the usual arguments regarding the tragedy of VietNam.
Selective (and collective) amnesia may be away of coping with defeat I guess...

cheers
acav
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Auckland, New Zealand
Joined: May 09, 2002
KitMaker: 517 posts
Armorama: 290 posts
Posted: Monday, August 04, 2008 - 05:14 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The U.S. military did not lose the Vietnam War. The politicians did. If acav disagrees, he needs to get better references. I was going to say more, but acav isn't going to change his mind.

No stowage on a NVA PT-76 ... yup.



Why should I change my mind?
That's a FlipFlop and surely the root of all evil...

I'll change my mind that the US lost the war when facts are presented to counter my views, which are simple - the Communist view of the war was of a struggle to reunify the nation of VietNam - whether that was a Good Thing or not is incidental.
The Communists achieved their war aims, at great cost to the people of all VietNam.
The US had no discernible war aims and lost.

And politicians may lose wars on behalf of the military, but the military cannot make wars without politicians.
Not in a freedom loving democracy anyhow.

There it is...
Hollowpoint
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Kansas, United States
Joined: January 24, 2002
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Posted: Monday, August 04, 2008 - 05:54 PM UTC
Flip-flop?

Why? Because I disagree with Walter Cronkite's view of the Vietnam War?

The U.S. won Tet, no matter what Cronkite said. The NVA could never manage as close to as big an offensive until the U.S. pulled out of the Nam and withheld aid.

Yeah, I hate Communists. I proudly served during the Cold War and will gladly "kill a Commie for Mommy" right now.

Were it not for free speech, we would not be posting on this forum right now. Funny how we don't have any Vietnamese chiming in.

The politics were F'ed up, much of the military strategy was F'ed up, but by the time things started to turn militarily, the hippies and politicians (with their almighty polls) changed public opinion, which this country seems to be increasingly dependent upon. The troops did what they were asked to do and we ought to thank them every time whenever we see them.

To reunify your country would require an act of geology.
Hollowpoint
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Kansas, United States
Joined: January 24, 2002
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Posted: Monday, August 04, 2008 - 06:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Boston Publishing series (about 20-25 volumes total) on the VN Conflict



What might this be? My Google comes up with nada.
jphillips
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Arizona, United States
Joined: February 25, 2007
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Posted: Monday, August 04, 2008 - 06:15 PM UTC
Hi Acav,
Yes, I'll be doing the Trump PT-76B. I ordered it yesterday, with a decal sheet by YnoT (the sheet also has markings for an IDF PT-76B) and a MiG Productions Dushka machine gun.
The PT-76 is a very cool tank and I want to dress it up a bit.
After I start on the kit, I'll post some pics, if I can get hold of a digital camera.
A few days ago, I picked up Boston Publishing's Vietnam Experience "Combat Photography" and "Flags Into Battle" at my local library. I think I'm going to order "Fall of the South" from Amazon used books. You really can't beat the price.
What were you planning to do with your PT-76 (if you end up buying one?) As far as markings and camo, I mean. It's been used by a lot of countries. But photos of PT-76s in the service of countries other than Russia/the USSR are pretty scarce.
Did you know, the Kurdish peshmerga have some captured ex-Iraqi army PT-76s. I wonder if they have painted little Kurdish flags on the turret, or any other markings? Maybe there are some OIF vets who served in northern Iraq on this forum who can tell us?
If we drop the Kurds like a hot plate next year, the way we abandoned the South Vietnamese, those tanks won't do the peshmerga much good, because their enemies will have air superiority. I guess they'll have to withdraw back up into the mountains to make their stand.
We should hook them up with some man-portable anti-aircraft and anti-armor missiles, if we have to leave. The peshmerga can take the missiles with them when they go up into the mountains. They might have to leave most of their vehicles behind, unfortunately. But I digress, sorry. I have a bad habit of doing that!
Anyway, post some pics of your PT-76 when you get started, will you? I might have to steal some ideas from you!
afv_rob
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England - East Anglia, United Kingdom
Joined: October 09, 2005
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Posted: Monday, August 04, 2008 - 11:46 PM UTC
Hardly any of this thread has anything to do with modeling, so i think you all need to rant your political views in some other forum, because this is not the place.
210cav
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Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
KitMaker: 6,149 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 12:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Amazing, how many two cent inputs on this topic!
DJ

PS-- we kicked their butts!



No, you killed a lot of people, civilians and soldiers alike (this last includes your own allies and even your own troops), but you still lost.

And that's just gone up to a buck...

put italicized text here



and easy statment to make while setting home drinking tea; sir.
I spent 14 month and 21 days in I-Corps. Went thru the 1968 Tet offensive, the summer offensive, the late summer offensive as well as the fall offensive. Never fired a shot at a civilian that didn't need it. Never saw anyone else do that either, but often saw the works done by the local VC doing that.
I was never easy on the otherguy, but that was the plan. He was never easy on me as well, and of course that was his plan. I think if you really had a clue you'd already know that 90% of civilians killed were killed by people of their own race, and a large segment of them were local VC in the first place. We delt with NVA regulars 90% of the time and ate his lunch everytime we met.
Viet Cong loved to use flame throwers and hand grenades in villages collecting taxes (where do you think they got 98% of their food stuffs?), and impressing young men into their evil doings.
gary



Gary-- Glad to see you join the discussion with Bob, Gary and I. I only felt recoil not regret everytime we beat their behinds back to Hanoi.
Garry Owen---1st Cavalry!
DJ
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
KitMaker: 12,927 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 - 02:59 AM UTC
The original question posed in this thread has been answered and sadly, has now gone way off-topic into areas which can only get more heated.

Therefore, (very) reluctantly, i'm locking it.
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