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Armor/AFV: Modern - USA
Modern Armor, AFVs, and Support vehicles.
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M113A3 Bucket review
edouble
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Arizona, United States
Joined: January 21, 2006
KitMaker: 126 posts
Armorama: 123 posts
Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 09:13 AM UTC
I recently completed an OOB review of the new Academy M113A3 for AMPS, check out my link for pics.

http://web.mac.com/ethandunsford/AMPS_ARIZONA/M113A3.html

Ellevenbravo
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Massachusetts, United States
Joined: April 08, 2007
KitMaker: 269 posts
Armorama: 261 posts
Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 09:28 AM UTC
If you want to make your review more accurate, stop calling the M-113 a "Gavin" No one in the military calls a 113 by that name. It was dreamed up by some nut job on the internet who is convinced that the 113 is better than the Humvee, Stryker, Bradley, etc. He has been doing a one-man show trying to convince the world that he knows best. Along the way, he decided to start call the 113 a Gavin.

Nice job on the model BTW....

John
exer
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Dublin, Ireland
Joined: November 27, 2004
KitMaker: 6,048 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 09:35 AM UTC
Ethan people do get upset when the M113 is referred to as the Gavin, BTW There's a review here on Armorama too
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/review/3068
Sudzonic
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Scotland, United Kingdom
Joined: December 07, 2007
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 09:36 AM UTC
A gavin thats a new one on me?
HeavyArty
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Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 09:45 AM UTC
As the others have said...you need to change the name. The M113 is not, and never has been, called the Gavin, except by a crackpot with a few websites who is on a one-man crusade to have it be the be-all, end-all vehicle for all the US Army's missions. It is a great vehicle, but not suited for all tasks. It is simpy an M113A3, or an APC, or bucket, or simply a 113, but definitely not the Gavin. It is not named after a General, as most other US armor is.

With all that said, pretty good pictures. Where is the review though? I only see pics.

Out of the box, it isn't really a fully accurate M113A3 either. It still has an early A2 engine, A2 laterals as opposed to a steering yoke as an A3 has, it is missing the added armor on the front glacis plate, and added kevlar armor on the inside roof and top troop hatch interior to name a few issues. Also, the side racks are too tall by 2 rungs and the bottom should be rungs as opposed to solid as well. Only 2BDE, 3ID M113A3s had the racks in OIF 1 as well, so the markings are not totally correct either.

Here is an example of an M113A2 in OIF 1 with the side rails from 3ID. They are the same racks that were on the A3s as well.

Tankleader
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Virginia, United States
Joined: April 29, 2003
KitMaker: 718 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 09:52 AM UTC
Gino,
Talk about rounds out. I think I saw a splash out in the distance with a polar correction or two.


Andy
Fitz
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Minnesota, United States
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 439 posts
Armorama: 331 posts
Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 12:05 PM UTC
The "nut-job" in question is one Mike Sparks who may or may not still be in the Army National Guard or Army Reserve (his story changes from day to day) as a 1Lt - a rank he has held for at least a decade and a half. He claims to be an infantry officer but reliable info has him serving in a quartermaster unit packing parachutes (not much infantry in the reserve). Before his Army stint he was in the Marines - until he flunked out of the platoon leaders course.

Most likely scenario is that Mr Sparks has been out of the Army for quite some time but refuses to admit it.

He runs a dizzying array of web sites devoted to his passions - namely the M113 as the answer to any and every military problem, UFO invasions, JFK conspiracies and sex with people dressed up as woodland animals (I am not making that up).

He started a petition to name the M113 after Gen. Gavin as part of his program to get his self-proclaimed military think-tank ideas on armored warfare adopted by the Pentagon. One goes with the other. He uses Google-bombing techniques to make it seem like the Gavin name is more widely used than it really is - and he believes his own hype. Nobody in uniform calls the M113 the Gavin, it is either the "1-1-3" or just "track".

Having endured several conversations with Mr Sparks personally I can assure you that any attempt to communicate with him is beyond a complete waste of time.
amerikaner
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Tennessee, United States
Joined: October 12, 2005
KitMaker: 34 posts
Armorama: 15 posts
Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 12:48 PM UTC
Gavin was new to me too. Hopefully, a Bradley is still a Bradley, a BFV,a IFV, or a track! Like any vehicle, they have their positives and negatives-so train real good anti tank teams to take them all out.
210cav
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Virginia, United States
Joined: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 01:05 PM UTC
Target! Check fire.
edouble
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Arizona, United States
Joined: January 21, 2006
KitMaker: 126 posts
Armorama: 123 posts
Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 03:51 PM UTC
Whoa, I hit a nerve! I didn't know anything about the Gavin name unitil I checked google for some color pics to get the desert color right. The abundance of "Gavin" must have been results of the bombing campaign and I apologize for the ignorance on my part. I am pretty current on most modern armor and for years I have referred to it as 1-1-3.

The review is almost done and will be on AMPS and DAK sites as soon as I get it typed.

I am a Sherman-aholic normally and build modern armor when it interests me or in this case was FREE!

To the moderator... change the title if you please.....
ptruhe
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Texas, United States
Joined: March 05, 2003
KitMaker: 2,092 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 04:31 PM UTC
Must feel like you hit a trip wire. Nice OOB build. The tail lights could use a bit of color. One nitpick is the stowage shouldn't go behind the driver's hatch as it will keep it from being locked into place when it's open.

Good to see you didn't use the G word on your web page. There a few people that would like to put some braille scale diecast M113s in a sock and give that moron a blanket party.

Paul
ALBOWIE
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New South Wales, Australia
Joined: February 28, 2006
KitMaker: 1,605 posts
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Posted: Monday, June 16, 2008 - 04:42 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I'd give him every round in Divarty Drop 50, fire for effect. Geeze, this Gavin thing is goofy, when are people gonna learn.


Gary, you are being too kind to him, only Div? , The nutback that started this whole Gavin nonsense needs a whole Corps or even AGrp shoot (possible some a mild nuking as well)

Gavin was an Airborne Officer so I fail to even see the link to mech inf and buckets (as I'll always know them

Al
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 12:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Must feel like you hit a trip wire. Nice OOB build. The tail lights could use a bit of color. One nitpick is the stowage shouldn't go behind the driver's hatch as it will keep it from being locked into place when it's open.

Good to see you didn't use the G word on your web page. There a few people that would like to put some braille scale diecast M113s in a sock and give that moron a blanket party.

Paul
The name does upset most military members, but your use of the name Gavin in your review will lead the review to lack credibility. Most modelers want a reviewer to have some knowledge on the subject matter. Your use of the term Gavin will tell anyone who has ever served around a 113 (normally just called a One-One-Three, PC or Papa Chuck), that you don't know your subject matter.
Fitz
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Minnesota, United States
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 439 posts
Armorama: 331 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 01:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Whoa, I hit a nerve! I didn't know anything about the Gavin name unitil I checked google for some color pics to get the desert color right. The abundance of "Gavin" must have been results of the bombing campaign and I apologize for the ignorance on my part. I am pretty current on most modern armor and for years I have referred to it as 1-1-3.


The good news is that we caught it early before the dreaded Gavin disease had a chance to sink in and infest all of your vital systems.

Now back to the models!
Fitz
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Minnesota, United States
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 439 posts
Armorama: 331 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 01:08 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Gavin was an Airborne Officer so I fail to even see the link to mech inf and buckets (as I'll always know them

Al


Sparky's rationale behind calling the M113 the "Gavin" was that he sees vast numbers of M113A3's (which are not even air-droppable like the early models) being dumped out the back of C-130's and onto hostile battlefields in far-off lands. Their primary military impact in such situations I suppose would be actually landing on enemy troop positions and crushing those underneath.

That is what the whole Gavin campaign is about. The crux of Sparky's military reform ideas is to convert the entire U.S. military to light armored airborne forces riding in M113's. If you dig far enough on his web pages you will even find his old invasion plan for Iraq which consisted of landing a fantasy flying boat version of the C130 on the Tigris river and floating M113A3's out the back where they would then swim up river to Baghdad!

ISYN

And the mind boggles at how he has not managed to pass the rank of 1LT in 14 years! The fact that there is no C130 floatplane version or even that his beloved M113A3's have been officially banned from performing amphibous operations for 30 years is not obstacle for the great Sparky.
Tankleader
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Virginia, United States
Joined: April 29, 2003
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Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 01:34 AM UTC
Whew,
Good thing that he got weeded out of the Marines.


Andy
SGTJKJ
#041
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Kobenhavn, Denmark
Joined: July 20, 2006
KitMaker: 10,069 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 01:39 AM UTC
He, he, Gavin was also new to me. Back to the model. Nice in box review, but I only see pictures so far.

Looking forward to read more.
Henk
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 02:33 AM UTC
I've changed the title, hope that's less controversial...

You guys crack me up with this, thanks for the laugh. Luckily I was not drinking coffee.
HeavyArty
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Florida, United States
Joined: May 16, 2002
KitMaker: 17,694 posts
Armorama: 13,742 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 02:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

...he sees vast numbers of M113A3's (which are not even air-droppable like the early models) being dumped out the back of C-130's and onto hostile battlefields in far-off lands.


Thats laughable. The M113A3, with its added armor plate, kevlar spall liners, upgraded engine, etc., etc. is too heavy to carry in a C-130 now anyways.
Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
Armorama: 9,071 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 05:23 AM UTC

Quoted Text

The "nut-job" in question is one Mike Sparks who may or may not still be in the Army National Guard or Army Reserve (his story changes from day to day) as a 1Lt - a rank he has held for at least a decade and a half. He claims to be an infantry officer but reliable info has him serving in a quartermaster unit packing parachutes (not much infantry in the reserve). Before his Army stint he was in the Marines - until he flunked out of the platoon leaders course.

Most likely scenario is that Mr Sparks has been out of the Army for quite some time but refuses to admit it.
There is an infantry 1LT Michael Sparks listed on AKO in the Army Reserves. By the looks of it, not in a unit. He probably still retains his commission. Officers are commissioned for life unless dismissed or resigned.
AJLaFleche
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Massachusetts, United States
Joined: May 05, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 06:28 AM UTC
Every time I see the name gavin in this thread, this image comes to mind Fred Garvin
edouble
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Arizona, United States
Joined: January 21, 2006
KitMaker: 126 posts
Armorama: 123 posts
Posted: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 - 08:06 AM UTC
As requested, back to the model....

http://www.amps-armor.org/ampssite/reviews/showReview.aspx?ID=391&Type=FB

Home site updated as well.


http://web.mac.com/ethandunsford/AMPS_ARIZONA/M113A3.html
Stormovik
Joined: January 04, 2007
KitMaker: 9 posts
Armorama: 8 posts
Posted: Saturday, June 21, 2008 - 11:47 AM UTC
The name Gavin maybe is due to the fact that General Gavin in his book Airborne Warfare exposed the possibility of deploying a lightly armored force in airborne operations, this book includes some sketches of the kind of the equippement that those units would use and is surprising that those supposed vehicles ressembles the M-113 a lot. Or maybe itīs just a nonsense without any support, or maybe a little bit of both. The fact is that M-113 donīt have any official name.
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