Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
Modern armor in general.
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China to field world's most powerful tank
Selrach
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Indiana, United States
Joined: January 04, 2003
KitMaker: 466 posts
Armorama: 378 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 03:25 AM UTC
Perhaps it's an assult gun concept, or maybe this "uber" tank is more for export than anything else.
I can see the advertising #:-)
"Now you can own a tank BIGGER than that of the running American dog agressor.
Send 2 million USD plus box tops from UN aid packages to :

Uber Tank Offer
Central Peoples Ministry for Tank Offers
Bejing, China"

Saddam would have loved something like this... remember his fairly useless but massive super gun? #:-)

So, what is the future for armor? Looks like the big gun concept is out.. What about missles or maybe an auto gun like the warthog uses?
What would your dream MBT have?

SS-74
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Vatican City
Joined: May 13, 2002
KitMaker: 3,271 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 03:38 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Perhaps it's an assult gun concept, or maybe this "uber" tank is more for export than anything else.
I can see the advertising #:-)
"Now you can own a tank BIGGER than that of the running American dog agressor.
Send 2 million USD plus box tops from UN aid packages to :

Uber Tank Offer
Central Peoples Ministry for Tank Offers
Bejing, China"

Saddam would have loved something like this... remember his fairly useless but massive super gun? #:-)

So, what is the future for armor? Looks like the big gun concept is out.. What about missles or maybe an auto gun like the warthog uses?
What would your dream MBT have?




30 tons
leather seats
carpet
clear roof armor
7.1 sound system
600 CD changer
Fold down bed
20 L cooler
Microwave
one loader (female)
one driver (female)
one gunner (female)
three tanker washer (female)

Here, my dream tank
sphyrna
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New York, United States
Joined: September 24, 2002
KitMaker: 379 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 04:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Re. a possible Red Chinese invasion of NJ, one of China's problems is the lack of amphibious warfare capablity. It would also have to construct a new generation of tank-landing craft to move the new "Super-Tank"........jim



hmmmmmm, they can have New Jersey,


:-)
DMS
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California, United States
Joined: May 14, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 05:59 AM UTC
Yeah, they can have New Jersery, but gotta keep them away from New York!!

I think all these ideas of "newer, better tanks" is really getting into "old school" warfare. I mean, how many future wars will really be determined by the tank? How much use will tanks get in the future anyway? I really believe that tanks are fading into obscruity. Oh yeah, first post
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 06:04 AM UTC
Imagine the headlines, "PRA armored division mugged on road to new york"

Imagine how useful the super-tank would be to some of the NJ-based trash hauling companies
penpen
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Hauts-de-Seine, France
Joined: April 11, 2002
KitMaker: 1,757 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 08:27 AM UTC
hey Dave,
you forgot the jacuzzi in your drream-tank !
Plus the two female swimmers (for fording security, of course) !
generalzod
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United States
Joined: December 01, 2001
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Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 08:51 AM UTC
I'm with Davidus and penpen on this new dream tank #:-)
Jacques
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Minnesota, United States
Joined: March 04, 2003
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Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 12:18 PM UTC
Like the "mixed" crews idea for the tanks...would have made life easier...two couples per AFV, although I suppose it is that way now? Russkies did it in WWII with few problems... and the germans thought the women were even better fighters.

I think the future with current weapons/armor will be smaller, faster vehicles with the same firepower. Things that may change tanks...

New propulsion: ie "hovertanks", "Anti-grav " tanks etc....pretty sci-fi at this point.

armament: usable liquid propellant system, or a usable "railgun". Also the introduction of energy weapons like particle beams or lasers of real use. Still a ways off.

Better armor: Non-linear, Kinetic energy disrupting materials...WAAAAYYY off in the future.

Higher speed...to what point now? Airpower seems good at picking you off unless you do mach 3 across the ground...

bigger gun...again, what point? The main gun of the M1, Challenger, Leopard II, T-80U/90, and Merkava all can penetrate the front armor of the other at comparable distance using proper rounds (souped up Sabots). IF it already works....

Now if you have to build a tank for a specific environment, then you can get down and dirty...urban assault, close terrain-large area, and wilderness survival all come to mind.

Urban assault would emphisize large guns, powerfull shells, specific weapons like thermobaric and fuel-air explosives, and HEAVY armor on all sides. Not too much speed though. The ultimate Angry Turtle... BTR-T?

Close terrain, large area would be like a European environ...ranges of 500M or under for over 57% of the shooting areas, plenty of area's with roads means high speed, armor sacrifices that can be dealt with, and the need for lots of vehicles.

Wilderness Survival is mainly "How to deal with Russia in the winter/spring. Excellent marsh/swamp mobility...EXCELLENT logistical support, and good optics.

But I think female crewmembers is the best next step
keenan
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Indiana, United States
Joined: October 16, 2002
KitMaker: 5,272 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 01:59 PM UTC
Yeah, I could just the wife and rolling along in a tank. Me as lost as H3ll and her yelling at me for not stopping to ask directions. I don't know how well that would work out...
ZoomieE7
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Texas, United States
Joined: October 17, 2002
KitMaker: 145 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 02:40 PM UTC
Gee. . . How does one say "MAUS "oder "E-100" in Chinese?? Without a crack crew and realistic training, it's just another museum piece, or something for the unenlightened citizenry to cheer at May Day Parades.
TankCarl
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Rhode Island, United States
Joined: May 10, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 11:22 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Let China field its 'uber' tank - when it comes to a shooting war I'll take a motivated American crew and their M1A2 any day. Oh, and by the way how do you say Warthog in Chinese?m:-)


Hey G S Patton,I usually tell SS-74 "# 19" Walthag,with flied lice,egg r
oll
SS-74
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Vatican City
Joined: May 13, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 12:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Gee. . . How does one say "MAUS "oder "E-100" in Chinese?? Without a crack crew and realistic training, it's just another museum piece, or something for the unenlightened citizenry to cheer at May Day Parades.



Unlightened citizen, what the heck you mean by that? you think we all chinese is like still in 19th century or something? For cry out loud.

By the way, you enlighted CHinese expert, Chinese don't hold May Parade, only Oct. 1st parade and it's once in every 5 years. Check your books before you shoot off your mouth, would ya?
beachbm2
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United States
Joined: December 21, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 09:31 PM UTC
While I agree that it would be a large target and a Monument to obsolescence, I sure would like to see one!
Just my 2 Cents
Jeff Larkin aka beachbm2
GIBeregovoy
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Metro Manila, Philippines
Joined: May 31, 2002
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Posted: Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 10:36 PM UTC
Re:autoloaders, IIRC the current Merkava IV uses an autoloader system.

There was rumor/talk that the Merkava IV was supposed to have a 140mm gun. They actually have 120mm.

If the Abrams were to be further developed (e.g. M1A3), it could/might have a 140mm gun (which gun I think is in development). That, plus SEP or perhaps SEPII tech, electro-armor (i.e. an 'electric field' is created around the armor which would protect it from HEAT - but not APFDS - type ammunition, IIRC), stealth paint, and a laser-dazzler mounted either in the loader's hatch (replacing the 7.62mm MG) or beside the .50-calibre on the CIWS. Add crew training... i.e. if Congress and the Army would like to have such a tank.
FCS is still under development, and last I heard it's really a whole system of equipment (wheeled and tracked AFVs, infantry, artillery, etc.) and not one single MBT.

On the Chinese uber-panzer, if I were Russia, I'd be nervous. North is where that monster will be pointed. As Sabot already mentioned, the PLA(N) doesn't have enough sealift capability to carry the PLA to Taiwan. Perhaps south towards Vietnam or India? Nah, jungles in Vietnam, mountains in India. North is Siberia - nice, rich land. Anyone read Clancy's "The Bear and the Dragon"?

BTW, it's not China that's first to develop a modern (not WW2 era) tank with 150mm or similar calibre weapon. The Swedes - if allowed - would already have an uber-panzer running around carrying with it a 152mm gun, 20mm co-axial (or was it 75mm?), heavy armor, up to 100 tons I guess. IIRC it was called MBT2000 I think, not sure. Wooden mock-ups were built, but it was scrapped in favor of a smaller machine - the Strv122.
80a2
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Flevoland, Netherlands
Joined: June 04, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 12:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Re:autoloaders, IIRC the current Merkava IV uses an autoloader system.

There was rumor/talk that the Merkava IV was supposed to have a 140mm gun. They actually have 120mm.

If the Abrams were to be further developed (e.g. M1A3), it could/might have a 140mm gun (which gun I think is in development). That, plus SEP or perhaps SEPII tech, electro-armor (i.e. an 'electric field' is created around the armor which would protect it from HEAT - but not APFDS - type ammunition, IIRC), stealth paint, and a laser-dazzler mounted either in the loader's hatch (replacing the 7.62mm MG) or beside the .50-calibre on the CIWS. Add crew training... i.e. if Congress and the Army would like to have such a tank.
FCS is still under development, and last I heard it's really a whole system of equipment (wheeled and tracked AFVs, infantry, artillery, etc.) and not one single MBT.

On the Chinese uber-panzer, if I were Russia, I'd be nervous. North is where that monster will be pointed. As Sabot already mentioned, the PLA(N) doesn't have enough sealift capability to carry the PLA to Taiwan. Perhaps south towards Vietnam or India? Nah, jungles in Vietnam, mountains in India. North is Siberia - nice, rich land. Anyone read Clancy's "The Bear and the Dragon"?

BTW, it's not China that's first to develop a modern (not WW2 era) tank with 150mm or similar calibre weapon. The Swedes - if allowed - would already have an uber-panzer running around carrying with it a 152mm gun, 20mm co-axial (or was it 75mm?), heavy armor, up to 100 tons I guess. IIRC it was called MBT2000 I think, not sure. Wooden mock-ups were built, but it was scrapped in favor of a smaller machine - the Strv122.



The merkava 4 uses a revolver style autoloader(10rounds), so not fully automatic the loader can take his time to load a round (first finish the coffee and look at the burning target )

Bren
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Cape Province, South Africa
Joined: July 07, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 01:18 AM UTC
One well placed mine and......................................
One well aimed rocket and....................................

Sabot
Joined: December 18, 2001
KitMaker: 12,596 posts
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Posted: Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 01:40 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Unlightened citizen, what the heck you mean by that? you think we all chinese is like still in 19th century or something? For cry out loud.


You mean things have changed since Steve McQueen's movie "The Sand Peebles"?
I've seen several Jackie Chan movies (dubbed ones not US ones), you telling me those aren't real?

I think he means to say "bigger is not better". The M1, for example, may be heavier than most tanks, but it is actually smaller (not as high) than our M60 series tanks.
shonen_red
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Metro Manila, Philippines
Joined: February 20, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 01:58 AM UTC
It's not the guns that makes up a man. Speed, agility, stength. Basics of war. The stealthier you are, the better in the field
GIBeregovoy
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Metro Manila, Philippines
Joined: May 31, 2002
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Posted: Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 07:07 PM UTC
For those interested, here's a thread from TankNet regarding the uber-panzer: http://63.99.108.76/ubb/Forum13/HTML/001893-3.html This thread includes pix of the laser dazzler. Note that TankNet's forum is 'backwards', i.e. the most recent post is at the top of the first page, with the first (oldest post) being in the bottom of the last page.
BillyBishop
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Ontario, Canada
Joined: March 20, 2002
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Posted: Monday, May 19, 2003 - 01:31 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Unlightened citizen, what the heck you mean by that? you think we all chinese is like still in 19th century or something? For cry out loud.

By the way, you enlighted CHinese expert, Chinese don't hold May Parade, only Oct. 1st parade and it's once in every 5 years. Check your books before you shoot off your mouth, would ya?



Dave,don't get too upset. I live 1 hour from the US border and some Americans think we live in Igloo's

Cheers, MSW
keenan
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Indiana, United States
Joined: October 16, 2002
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Posted: Monday, May 19, 2003 - 01:48 AM UTC
Billy, the only Igloo I know anything about is the is the Igloo brand cooler I use to ice down my beer.
T-55A
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Texas, United States
Joined: February 23, 2003
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Posted: Monday, May 19, 2003 - 08:12 AM UTC
Which shoots faster...the 30mm gun on the A-10 or the 152mm gun on the tank
Even before they fire the 'big' gun they will be eating 30mm rounds

T-55A
jimbrae
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Provincia de Lugo, Spain / España
Joined: April 23, 2003
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Posted: Monday, May 19, 2003 - 10:29 AM UTC
I would perhaps suggest that those new "Inert" or concrete weapons could make a serious dent in the Über-tank. These new weapons are going to make some of the high-explosive weapons somewhat unnecessary. Imagine 50 kilos of laser/satelite-guided concrete bomb coming thru the turret armor.......very messy....... (++)
GIBeregovoy
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Metro Manila, Philippines
Joined: May 31, 2002
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Posted: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 - 12:42 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I would perhaps suggest that those new "Inert" or concrete weapons could make a serious dent in the Über-tank. These new weapons are going to make some of the high-explosive weapons somewhat unnecessary. Imagine 50 kilos of laser/satelite-guided concrete bomb coming thru the turret armor.......very messy....... (++)



Not only satellite guided. How 'bout satellite launched high kinetic weapons consisting of a DU or tungsten rod, a small GPS device on the rear and small fins for maneuver. Around a foot long and one or two inches in diameter. Load 'em by the hundreds in a satellite or by the tens on a high flying UAV (take your pick - GlobalHawk, Predator, etc). Drop 'em on the target. The sheer velocity of such rods (think APFDS rounds diving) would knock out any tank out there.