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Armor/AFV: Allied - WWII
Armor and ground forces of the Allied forces during World War II.
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Question about 2nd armor div
EasyOff
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Posted: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 08:35 AM UTC
Hi folks,
Its been awhile since we last talked , I was wondering if anyone had a link or knows the answer to my these two questions.

1) What type machinery did the second armor div have in Normandy?
Did they have any Stuart tanks? What else?

This next question is more of a modeling question. I have the US Infantry 2nd armor div Dragon kit which will be featured in my diorama that I'm trying to work on, they'll be escorting the MB figures German Captives to a temporary holding location. My question is:

2) I understand if I don't want to paint the camo pattern on the US figures, I can simply add buttons to their jackets. Which is great because then I can have camo pants and plain jackets or camo jackets with plain pants or plain on plain or camo on camo... So, how do make those little buttons?? My Gosh, I'll never get them perfect.

Thanks in advance for any help you will offer,

Loyaly,

EasyOff
CDK
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Posted: Wednesday, July 16, 2008 - 08:42 AM UTC
This is supposed to be a Stuart in Normandie,



I believe those are 2nd armored markings on it.

more can be found here:

210cav
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 03:13 AM UTC
You certainly can use the photo example. But I think the caption on the original photo is incorrect. First, it obviously not a Sherman. Second, the 2nd Armored Division arrived on D plus 3 (9 June 1944) in Normandy. The caption states this is a photo taken on D plus 1. I cannot read the bumper numbers, but each tank battalion had a light tank company of 17 vehicles so conceivably C-14 may be the Charlie Company 1st platoon sergeant's tank. I would further venture it could be from either the 67th or 66th Armored Regiments. If so, she would belong to the 1st battalion of a given regiment.
Hope this helps
DJ
blaster76
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 03:23 AM UTC
Looks to me to be an M5 Stewart, not an M3.
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 03:38 AM UTC
Definitely an M-5
Drader
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 03:43 AM UTC
M5A1 I think, earlier version without the folding AA MG mount. It's also got the deflector in front of the bow MG that 3AD tanks had.

David
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 04:01 AM UTC

Quoted Text

M5A1 I think, earlier version without the folding AA MG mount. It's also got the deflector in front of the bow MG that 3AD tanks had.

David


David-- if she did come out of the 3rd AD, they did not get into Normandy until 24 June. Once again, I believe the photo while a good representation of the vehicle for model purposes is misidentified. Also, if it is from the 3rd AD then the early three regiment armored division set-up does not apply. Only the 1st and 2nd retained the three regiments. The 3rd had tank and infantry battalions under combat commands. I believe they had the 32nd and 33rd Armored Regiments along with the 83rd Armored Reconnaissance battalion.
DJ
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 04:11 AM UTC
Gday John
You can use the M5/M5A1 for Normandy, but not the M3A1 (but never say never!) and they used predominantly M4 Shermans.
As for buttons there are a few ways to go about it. You can get some brass tube from the LHS of the right diameter, and then some thin lead sheet. Simply punch out each button (like cutting cookies)
They could also be made from styrene rod (thin slices of the right diameter)
Same thing as above, but use a long thin worm of putty. I think for the fact they need to be perfectly circular, a pre shaped medium as mentioned earlier would be most suitable...
Sounds like an interesting project though mate!
Brad
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 04:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

This is supposed to be a Stuart in Normandie,






I believe this is a 3AD 33AR M5A1, dated 11 July..
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 04:30 AM UTC
How did you figure that out?
CDK
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 05:18 AM UTC

Quoted Text



1) What type machinery did the second armor div have in Normandy?
Did they have any Stuart tanks? What else?



This is the question I was trying to help with, he mentions no dates, and no particular Stuarts, so I didn't think that was important at all.

I merely posted a picture of a Stuart in what appeared to be Normandie.



Thanks to Honeycut for pointing out that it's the 3rd armored and not the 2nd.

210cav
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 05:43 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text



1) What type machinery did the second armor div have in Normandy?
Did they have any Stuart tanks? What else?



This is the question I was trying to help with, he mentions no dates, and no particular Stuarts, so I didn't think that was important at all.

I merely posted a picture of a Stuart in what appeared to be Normandie.



Thanks to Honeycut for pointing out that it's the 3rd armored and not the 2nd.



I trust you do not think the discussion is a criticism of your response. I (we) are discussing the photo in terms of its' historical context. If it is from the 3rd AD in Normandy, I wish to know how that conclusion was reached to further my appreciation of the markings.
DJ
EasyOff
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 07:12 AM UTC
Lamont,

I understand what the photo was about, thanks.

Bradley, those are some fantastic ideas on making the buttons. Thanks! It sounds relatively easy enough to try. Do you think that there'd be any problems doing what I was talking about? Using camo bottoms and solid color tops or visa versa?

Thanks everyone else also! I'm back at the table and I'm feelin' fine.

John
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 08:37 AM UTC


This picture can be found on page 53 of US Light Tanks at War 1941-45 by Steven J. Zaloga (Concord). The full caption reads:

A M5A1 from Co. C, 33rd Armored Regiment, 3rd Armored Division, passes a shell-pocked building in the town of Airel on 11 July, as US armor moved up to stop a German attack from Le Desert against the 9th Infantry Div. One of the curious details on this M5A1 is a device located below the hull machine gun . This was apparently added to prevent wire obstructions or communications wire across roads from catching on the hull machine gun and slamming the receiver into the co-driver's legs. (US Army)

A number of other tanks from the same formation appear in the book by Zaloga including C-34, which is given as a decal option in the recent AFV Club M5A1 early kit. The date on that photo is July 8, 1944--perhaps too late for your purpose.

Reading your original post I see you are interested in for 2nd Armored Division vehicles, in general. I cannot give you a definitive list, but I can tell you some vehicles that were available.

M5A1 Stuart: Paraphrasing from the book above, by the time of the Normandy invasion the US Army had largely changed over to the M5A1 Stuart, with over a thousand in France in US Army service by August 1944.

M4 Sherman (75mm) and M4A1 Sherman (75mm): These were the common types in US service for D-Day, including Duplux Drive tanks. By the time of Operation Cobra you start to see 76mm versions. I think the first M4A3s start to arrive around the time of Cobra.

M2, M2A1, M3, M3A1 Half-track: All in service by Normandy and heavily utilized by armored infantry. Many special purpose variants also in use.

M8 Howitzer Motor Carriage: Definitely in Normandy by August.

M7 Priest: Definitely in Normandy. I believe the M12s were rebuilt and deployed a bit later.

M31 ARV: Definitely on Normandy. I believe the M32s came later.

There are lots more, especially support vehicles, that would belong to the division. The US Army standardized it's designs as much as possible, so if you see a vehicle in one armored division the others probably had some too.

-Doug
210cav
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 08:41 AM UTC
Doug-- thank you for the input.
DJ
EasyOff
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 10:39 AM UTC
Hey Doug,
Thanks, so, do you suppose the 2nd had M2's? M8's that sort of thing? What's your input in regards to the uniforms being half camo? I wanted to sort a mix it up a bit, just for texture etc.

John
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 04:29 PM UTC

Quoted Text



2) I understand if I don't want to paint the camo pattern on the US figures, I can simply add buttons to their jackets. Which is great because then I can have camo pants and plain jackets or camo jackets with plain pants or plain on plain or camo on camo... So, how do make those little buttons?? My Gosh, I'll never get them perfect.

Thanks in advance for any help you will offer,

Loyaly,

EasyOff


I don't have my references in front of me but I'm not sure that the uniforms for the 2nd AD doughs are as versatile as you describe. The pants have, IIRC large pockets making them unsuitable as normal unifom pants. The 2nd was one of the few, perhaps the only unit in Normandy wearing this uniform, and it is my understanding that they dropped it fairly quickly due to its resemblance to the German (perhaps SS) camo uniform. I once read, perhaps here, an article on this set, stating that conversion of it was limited, the author I believe said that it might be converted to a paratrooper uniform. Of course a lot of this depends on your own personal taste, I am currently attempting a dio based on my Father's unit meeting elements of the 6th AD on the road in France, and I am forced ot use a real mix of uniforms to get the figures (in casual poses.) For me, the dio subject kind of trumps a few inaccuracies, but then again I'm just making this for my Dad and myself, not for a competition.

John
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 06:46 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Thanks, so, do you suppose the 2nd had M2's? M8's that sort of thing? What's your input in regards to the uniforms being half camo? I wanted to sort a mix it up a bit, just for texture etc.


Hi John,

The 2nd Armored Division definitely had M2 and M3s from Africa on (U.S. Halftracks in Combat 1941-1945 by Zaloga; Concord). It also certainly had M8s in Europe (US Armored Artillery in World War II by Zaloga; Concord). Unfortunately, I do not have trustworthy references with unit allocations for the division.

While searching the internet, I did find this picture which you may find interesting (http://www.2ndarmored.com/):



The caption reads: 2nd Armored Division staging in Southern England for Normandy.

Also, I left tank destroyers off my list. I believe the 2nd would have M10s for Normandy, augmented by towed guns.

I cannot help with the uniform questions. I only have a few references in that area!

Good luck with your project.

-Doug
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 09:34 PM UTC
Hi John

Wrestling the thread back to your question, the Tamiya M4 Early has markings for a 2AD tank. You may need to make a few changes though to get it to look more like the original Hurricane. I'm sure people here wil help you with stuff like late low bustle turrets, should you feel the need

David
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 09:59 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi John

Wrestling the thread back to your question, the Tamiya M4 Early has markings for a 2AD tank. You may need to make a few changes though to get it to look more like the original Hurricane. I'm sure people here will help you with stuff like late low bustle turrets, should you feel the need

David


Here you go... Disembarking



Change of engine during Operation Cobra. Note the camouflage striping.



Cheers
Brad
Drader
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Posted: Thursday, July 17, 2008 - 10:20 PM UTC
Note lack of pistol port on the embarking shot.......

David
210cav
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Posted: Friday, July 18, 2008 - 03:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hi John

Wrestling the thread back to your question, the Tamiya M4 Early has markings for a 2AD tank. You may need to make a few changes though to get it to look more like the original Hurricane. I'm sure people here wil help you with stuff like late low bustle turrets, should you feel the need

David


I hope we did not get too far off the topic!
EasyOff
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Posted: Friday, July 18, 2008 - 04:58 AM UTC
Oh my God!!! You guys are amazing! THANKS!!!!! K, now I have another question, I've never done this before so, I don't even know where to get them. I have the new AFV Stuart M5, it has decals for the 3rd armor div. Its really not important what div I have, as long as the uniforms from the 3rd are like the uniforms of the 2nd armor div. You see, the figures I have are 2nd armor div, those kinky camo things. If they are the same, then I don't need the decals, if they aren't, then I do, leading me back to the question, where does one shop for decals??
Thanks for helping this n00b out with his first dio.

Oh! and Janne, if your still following this.... DUDE!!!!! How are ya?? Me, well, after 25 years, she's divorsing me do to my health.
She wants someone more fit to do the things that she likes to do. To me, its easier to JUST GET A FRIEND!!!!!! What the heck!!

John
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Posted: Friday, July 18, 2008 - 05:51 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Oh my God!!! You guys are amazing! THANKS!!!!! K, now I have another question, I've never done this before so, I don't even know where to get them. I have the new AFV Stuart M5, it has decals for the 3rd armor div. Its really not important what div I have, as long as the uniforms from the 3rd are like the uniforms of the 2nd armor div. You see, the figures I have are 2nd armor div, those kinky camo things. If they are the same, then I don't need the decals, if they aren't, then I do, leading me back to the question, where does one shop for decals??
Thanks for helping this n00b out with his first dio.


John


The Armored Infantry for the 3rd didn't afaik, wear the camo uniform. Of course, you could get some Archer decals for your M5 to make it into a 2nd AD vehicle.

John
EasyOff
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Posted: Saturday, July 19, 2008 - 02:32 AM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text


the Armored Infantry for the 3rd didn't afaik, wear the camo uniform. Of course, you could get some Archer decals for your M5 to make it into a 2nd AD vehicle.

John


Thanks John, I'll look into Archer.
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