Which version of the scout car did the LRDG and/or SAS use in the desert — the M3 or M3A1?

I've found references to support either.

Hey Jason,
Never heard that before.
The only reference I've seen for the LRDG using anything from White was one for a White 10ton truck used by the Heavy Section .

http://blindkat.hegewisch.net/lrdg/lrdgvehicles.html

Where did you find yours?
Cheers

jjumbo

Thanks for asking, John — you've given me a chance to sound slightly less ignorant than I did in the first post!

There's a photo right here: http://www.afrikakorps.org/_photos/LRDG/LRDGWhiteSC.jpg

If you want to see it in context, it's from http://www.afrikakorps.org/british.htm. You'll have to scroll down the page slightly less than half way. Be warned, the page has lots of images and could take quite a while to load.

I first came across a reference to the LRDG's use of the White scout car in a back page feature of the Marshall Cavendish magazine Images Of War. Unfortunately I can't find my copy of that issue at the moment.

EDIT: Found it! Issue 19, "Race For Tunis." The back page feature "Hardware" has 4 full colour photos of the vehicle — contemporary, not vintage. The text says "The White was used... by the Long Range Desert Group and similar formations." No reference to M3 or M3A1, and I can't tell which marque it is by looking at the photos.

I'm happy to scan the feature, if anyone wants to see it.

Thanks for the info Jason,
It's kinda odd that the other various sites dedicated to the LRDG makes no mention of the White Scout Car being used.
While I'm not sure if it would have been a better vehicle in the berms and dunes of North Africa than the various trucks and other vehicles used, it's top speed of 50mph and light armour would have been useful.
Cheers

jjumbo

You're right, the scarcity of info on the web is unusual.

I think I might have found the answer to my own question too: according to Wikipedia, only 64 M3s were made, all of which went to the 7th Cav; so the LRDG almost certainly used the M3A1.

Thanks for a great bit of research and the interesting links. I've always loved the little Whites and wanted to build one but they didn't seem to be used much. This certainly opens up a mountain of possibilities though. Once again great job!

Jim
Large Scale Armory

My pleasure! I'll probably make up a web page that ties the research together, for the benefit of future searchers.

Hi Jason

I vaguely remember there being a mention of testing being done by the LRDG with a M3 (may have been by W.B Kennedy Shaw?? was a while ago now).. But what M3 that was, was never mentioned (scoutcar, halftrack, Honey, Grant...... you know the list).

I hope this helps in your search.

Cheers

Rob

Yes an M3A1.

I don't believe any M3's ever saw action.

.

Thanks, guys.

Cheers everyone!

Very interesting topic. Sadly all the links are dead now..

Anybody have those original LRDG M3A1 pictures from the afrikakorps.org website please?

Thank you vety much!

Martin

I have a disintegrating copy of the 1968 book "The Raiders- Desert Strike Force" by Arthur Swinson. I've always considered this to be fairly authoritative regarding LRDG and SAS operations in N Africa, although it is limited on precise equipment detail. There is no mention in there of a White Scout Car of any type.

The M3 is likely to have been too heavy for LRDG ops well off the beaten track. Pre-war expeditions by Bagnold and others had shown that lightweight vehicles were essential. The Chevy 1533X2 with 4B1 body most commonly used by LRDG weighed in at under 3 tons empty, whereas the M3 Scout was about 4 tons. Trucks frequently had to be completely unloaded for un-bogging: you can't take the armour off an M3, and a ton matters. It was also 4WD, and early LRDG use of 4WD CMPs by Patrols was short-lived in favour of lighter and more fuel-efficient 2WD models. 4WDs had to carry half a ton more fuel for the same range.

Heavy Section did have a White 6x4 10-tonner. It can be seen in the very background of one single picture.

Several sources and a couple of other books suggest that LRDG did have an M3 Light Tank at one point, later donated to Free French forces. Its proposed tactical employment is unclear, but it was deemed unsuitable. As was the 4.5" howitzer portee on a 6x4 truck, also donated to the French. It seems that a single half-track was tested by T Patrol in mid-1941, but not pursued. The model is unclear. Were any M2/3/5 half-tracks or M2 unarmoured half-track trucks even supplied to the 8th Army? No photos. Did LRDG perhaps borrow a Kegresse, Somua or Unic from the Free French, with whom they often worked?

Martin, sadly I don't seem to have kept a copy of the images from Afrikakorps.org. The WayBack Machine has archived the page's text but not the images: http://web.archive.org/web/20090815091438/http://www.afrikakorps.org/british.htm

I'll scan the feature from Images Of War and see about getting you a copy.

A month later...

This is the back cover of Images of War issue 19, copyright 1994 Marshall Cavendish Ltd, London. I couldn't find credits for the photos.

The relevant text says "...in the conditions of the Desert War, light vehicles could work their way round open flanks and disrupt the enemy's supply and assembly areas ... The White was used in this role by the Long Range Desert Group and similar formations." No sources are cited.

Although I can't remotely consider myself an expert on the SAS or LRDG, I've never heard of them using the M3A1 scout car; as others have said. The quote in this article is the first I've seen, although like you said Jason, no sources cited.

Do you mind me "lifting" a copy of your scan and posting it on a LRDG related Facebook Page? These guys know their stuff and if anyone can give a definitive answer on this subject, it's them.

I posted this question to the Long Range Desert Group Preservation Society Facebook page run by John Valenti. Written documentation and one pic were produced that show that 6 M3A1's were received in the Middle East in September 1941 for testing, one of which was allotted to the LRDG. No other written docs were produced, but the consensus was that the Whites were not selected for service by the LRDG due to weight issues mostly. Coupled with the lack of any other evidence to the contrary, I'd suspect that it is correct. My $0.02.

Be my guest.

Looks like an interesting group -- I sent a request to join. The consensus is indeed as you say, and it was reached pretty quickly too.

I wonder where Afrikakorps.org got their (mis)information from? It'd be funny if they used Images of War as their source.