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Dioramas
Do you love dioramas & vignettes? We sure do.
Dead, wounded bodies.
BigfootV
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Posted: Friday, August 15, 2008 - 08:12 AM UTC
Hey Everyone, This question has been milling around in my head for years. I read something on this years ago, and was wondering what peoples views are on this topic.

Where is line drawn between too much blood with dead/wounded bodies?? I.E. Missing arms, legs, half bodies, heads wounds??
Example: Figure hanging out a turret hatch on a tank, missing body parts.
How does one get the point across that he's no longer of this earth without grossing out the viewer?
Accurate/historic modelling, Is that the goal, or I'm I off base with this???

Things that make you go.........hmmmmm.
Any replies on this would be most helpful.
Thx.
UncaBret
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Posted: Friday, August 15, 2008 - 08:24 AM UTC
First, I think it would depend on the viewer.
Second, I think someone could get the point across that this guy is dead without going Tarentino.
dbudd
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Posted: Friday, August 15, 2008 - 08:32 AM UTC
In the Verlinden book on Greg Cihlar there are some pictures of a diorama with a German soldier missing an arm with some bone sticking out. It gets the point across, but isn't gory. I think showing that kind of thing or showing bandaged wounds is a good way. It might be too much if you are breaking out the two part putty to make little internal organs to do a scene like Saving Private Ryan. I think the outstanding "Victors and Vanquished" diorama (currently in the forum) does an excellent job of showing wounded soldiers without going over the top.

But it is your work so do whatever you want.
jjumbo
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Posted: Friday, August 15, 2008 - 08:38 AM UTC
Hey Brian,
I find the motto " Less is more" is applicable to displaying dead or wounded figures in a diorama.
Very well crafted dioramas and vehicle builds can be ruined if the figures look like they've been through a slaughterhouse.
The few wounded or dead figures that I've included in some of my dioramas have had very little gore showing.
IMHO, I just don't think it's required.
Cheers

jjumbo
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Posted: Friday, August 15, 2008 - 08:51 AM UTC
Here's quite a comprehensive study covering subjects from between weapons and the wounds they produce:

-- MEDICAL DEPARTMENT UNITED STATES ARMY IN WORLD WAR II --
Wound ballistics

Could be useful as reference material.
Warning, some quite graphic photos of war injuries there. Don't say I didn't warn you.

On the subject of amount of gore, I'd also say that less is more.
BigfootV
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Posted: Friday, August 15, 2008 - 09:46 AM UTC
Thx for the input guys.

I looked at the Victors Dio and agree that the wounded figures are not "over the top." and put the point acrossed nicely.

I asked the question because it seems that the topic has been some what of a "Taboo" topic in model making circles for years.

Eetu, thx for the link. I don't think I'll be doing any damage to that degree any time soon. Figures are not the Bigfoot's strong point.
spongya
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MODELGEEK
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Posted: Friday, August 15, 2008 - 10:37 AM UTC
It's a personal choice, really. Most of the time I see a dead body in a diorama, it's usually for purely "ornamental" reasons, or for showing how kick-ass the Germans were. (Dead Russians hanging out tanks while victorious German troops march by -that's a very common theme.)
I think the only appropriate time and place for actually showing how bad war really is, when you WANT to show that war is brutal and evil. Kind of like a message, you know.
Plasticbattle
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Posted: Friday, August 15, 2008 - 10:53 AM UTC
In my own opinion .... nothing is over the top if done well. I, as a viewer, wouldnīt be offended by blood or guts in any quantities, if it added to the scene and done realistically.

Problem is .... its probably not that easy to carry off realistically and give it a purpose. My interest is miliatry modelling ... and eventhough we are all aware how bloody a war can be ... the gory side is not the focus. If gore was my focus, I would be modelling scale scenes from the Texas chain massacre, or the Hostel. Im sure theres a site somewhere that deals with the horror and gore theme.
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Friday, August 15, 2008 - 01:27 PM UTC
Agree with Frank here... So long as it was well crafted, you could get away with anything really. That said, to me less is more. For example, you mentioned the dead TC hanging out of a turret. This can be done with zero blood. All comes down to how the figure is positioned. Hanging or hunched, or at an unconfortable position of rest would show he is mortally wounded...
Cheers
Brad
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Posted: Saturday, August 16, 2008 - 02:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Agree with Frank here... So long as it was well crafted, you could get away with anything really. That said, to me less is more. For example, you mentioned the dead TC hanging out of a turret. This can be done with zero blood. All comes down to how the figure is positioned. Hanging or hunched, or at an unconfortable position of rest would show he is mortally wounded...
Cheers
Brad


Indeed, this reminds me one diorama, the name of which I can't remember now: -- Click --

I think the poses are just what makes them convincing, not the amount of blood and gore. That diorama has none, but the positions of the bodies, like rags conforming to the bombed-out terrain, the skintones and little details like turned out pockets (suggesting they've been looted) get the message across far better than any amount of red.

Also, that reminds me of one fundamental flaw in many a figure depicting the dead, they tend to be stiff, like they're just lying down in certain poses. The realistic limpness seems to be extremely difficult to capture.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Sunday, August 17, 2008 - 10:13 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey Everyone, This question has been milling around in my head for years. I read something on this years ago, and was wondering what peoples views are on this topic.

Where is line drawn between too much blood with dead/wounded bodies?? I.E. Missing arms, legs, half bodies, heads wounds??
Example: Figure hanging out a turret hatch on a tank, missing body parts.
How does one get the point across that he's no longer of this earth without grossing out the viewer?
Accurate/historic modelling, Is that the goal, or I'm I off base with this???

Things that make you go.........hmmmmm.
Any replies on this would be most helpful.
Thx.



Well, a model is first and foremost, a small work of art, and I suppose it all depends on what artistic effect you want to have on the viewer. Do you want them to be drawn in by the details of your little piece of history, or do you want them to recoil from it and walk away? Even during the war, the great military cartoonist Bill Mauldin had a policy against depicting corpses in his "Willie and Joe" drawings, even though he depicted the daily situations of common soldiers on the front line. It was always understood by the viewers that there were probably bodies "just out of shot," but even GI's in the field didn't want to dwell on that when reading "Stars and Stripes."
Plasticbattle
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2008 - 12:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Well, a model is first and foremost, a small work of art, and I suppose it all depends on what artistic effect you want to have on the viewer. Do you want them to be drawn in by the details of your little piece of history, or do you want them to recoil from it and walk away? Even during the war, the great military cartoonist Bill Mauldin had a policy against depicting corpses in his "Willie and Joe" drawings, even though he depicted the daily situations of common soldiers on the front line. It was always understood by the viewers that there were probably bodies "just out of shot," but even GI's in the field didn't want to dwell on that when reading "Stars and Stripes."


I know there is a certain amount of "taken for granted" within the modelling circle about blood or gore ... but how much of it stems from this time .. or any time of war? There surely was censored articles or propaganda or feel good images/stories published "back home" to keep up morale and not strike panic among those left behind. I can fully understand why this was done and accept the reasoning behind it. But its hardly a basis that should govern, "what" or "what not" should be modelled today?
I donīt think any modeller sets out to repel the viewer (although there probably are those who have this as their main goal also), but capture the accuracy and realism that goes hand in hand, with war.
BigfootV
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2008 - 03:13 AM UTC
Hi everyone,

It would seem I've awakened a sleeping giant with this topic.

Like I said in my last post, it seems that over the yaers this as been "Taboo" and now that the WW2 vet's are dissappearing I feel that it should be the, dare I say it, resposiblity of every modeler to remind the viewer that these men and women, from every nation, fought and died for what they thought was at the time, "The right thing to do." Granted a picture says a thousand words, but a dio, that would make me think alittle because it a 3D picture.
We bring that photo to life for the viewer, we are telling a story, good or bad.

Even now with the current events the world has forgotten the past and in my veiw we are going to repeat it.

I'm sure this post is going to stir up some more thoughts on this.
BigfootV
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Posted: Monday, August 18, 2008 - 04:09 AM UTC
Sorry for the rant, I've not had my coffee this morning.

One final thought, When the news reel came out of the Tarawa battle it was withheld from the public for a time by the War Dept. because they when under the impression that the America people would not be able to stomach some of the footage shoot of dead GI's laying on the beach.
Even in the Tarawa dio's, that has been past down as "Taboo." to show that side of battle.

I guess the point is that it depends on how much "Shock and Awe." someone wishes to put into the story. It's a personal issue on how one feel on the subject.

for now.
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