Dave Harper has posted an interesting pic on ML of a Sherman being repatched here
and here's the thread
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1219605520/Some+new+photos+I+found.
Hosted by Darren Baker
Sherman being repatched
exer
Joined: November 27, 2004
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Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 09:05 PM UTC
HONEYCUT
Joined: May 07, 2003
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Posted: Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 09:38 PM UTC
What a great pic, Pat.
Knowing Daves interests, is one to assume it is a PTO M4A3?
The welder has the interest piqued also. I reckon he would make a great scutped figure... Hmmm...
Brad
Knowing Daves interests, is one to assume it is a PTO M4A3?
The welder has the interest piqued also. I reckon he would make a great scutped figure... Hmmm...
Brad
exer
Joined: November 27, 2004
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 01:57 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What a great pic, Pat.
Knowing Daves interests, is one to assume it is a PTO M4A3?
The welder has the interest piqued also. I reckon he would make a great scutped figure... Hmmm...
Brad
No I think he posted it because of the unusual subject, AFAIK it's a 6th AD M4A3 at Nancy 1944.
Go on Brad sculpt him- you know you want to
DaGreatQueeg
Joined: August 01, 2005
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 02:13 AM UTC
Wow - that is a cool pic !!!!!! Makes you wonder what the replacement crews feel when they get a "repaired" track to go off to war with 
HONEYCUT
Joined: May 07, 2003
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 03:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
AFAIK it's a 6th AD M4A3 at Nancy 1944.
Aha! This is more in line with what I was thinking. Definitely looked to be the 6th AD speed numbers, but I know little of PTO Shermans and whether they used similar...
Quoted Text
Go on Brad sculpt him- you know you want to
Put it this way Pat. The pic will be stored in the 'future sculpts reference' folder...
Quoted Text
Makes you wonder what the replacement crews feel when they get a "repaired" track to go off to war with
Brent, I wonder if it was repaired and used by the same crew/unit as a 'running repair' or cycled through usual channels and sent where needed from reserve stock? I guess it depends on the nature of the damage. This could have been a projectile that passed clean through without igniting the ammunition stores...
Brad
210cav
Joined: February 05, 2002
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 03:37 AM UTC
Nice patch, that is workmanship 
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 05:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
What a great pic, Pat.
Knowing Daves interests, is one to assume it is a PTO M4A3?
The welder has the interest piqued also. I reckon he would make a great scutped figure... Hmmm...
Brad
Brad, note the right sleeve, and the shirt sleeve back on his wrist under the cover-alls. He has his wools on under the cover-alls. He would make a great figure.
My understanding from veterans is that if the crew survived and their tank required extended repairs, say at division level, they most likely would get a "new" one. If the repair was more local, they would get their tank back. This one is a toss up. The round went through the left side just in front of the auxiliary generator (wet stowage so main gun ammo is in the floor). I forget what is in the box where the round came through, but my guess is this is a high level repair and some "lucky" crew is going to get this one as a replacement.
SIRNEIL
Joined: July 30, 2007
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 06:59 AM UTC
that is an interesting picture
it looks to me that they have cut out where the round went through the armour at an angle then they have made a square plug that will be arc welded into the hole. i would think that the welder would have to lay down repeated weld beads to build up the gap until it was flush with the hull.
i'd love to see a picture of it finished.
also i wonder if the welders mate went round the tank and chequed for chips and scratches, then painted them with his 4/0 sable paint brush in olive drab.....
neil
it looks to me that they have cut out where the round went through the armour at an angle then they have made a square plug that will be arc welded into the hole. i would think that the welder would have to lay down repeated weld beads to build up the gap until it was flush with the hull.
i'd love to see a picture of it finished.
also i wonder if the welders mate went round the tank and chequed for chips and scratches, then painted them with his 4/0 sable paint brush in olive drab.....
neil
Bratushka
Joined: May 09, 2008
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 07:40 AM UTC
Quoted Text
also i wonder if the welders mate went round the tank and chequed for chips and scratches, then painted them with his 4/0 sable paint brush in olive drab.....
neil
he probably used a Q-tip to achieve the proper texture
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 08:11 AM UTC
[quote]that is an interesting picture
it looks to me that they have cut out where the round went through the armour at an angle then they have made a square plug that will be arc welded into the hole. i would think that the welder would have to lay down repeated weld beads to build up the gap until it was flush with the hull.
i'd love to see a picture of it finished.
also i wonder if the welders mate went round the tank and chequed for chips and scratches, then painted them with his 4/0 sable paint brush in olive drab.....
Your analysis of the weld technique is spot on. Having taken welding classes at a college we used that technique all the time, it makes for a stronger weld. The angle is more extreme than I was taught, but that is thicker plate than we had to work with. I am wondering how the heat of that much welding would effect the surrounding metal, and if there was a covering plate put on over the patch.
it looks to me that they have cut out where the round went through the armour at an angle then they have made a square plug that will be arc welded into the hole. i would think that the welder would have to lay down repeated weld beads to build up the gap until it was flush with the hull.
i'd love to see a picture of it finished.
also i wonder if the welders mate went round the tank and chequed for chips and scratches, then painted them with his 4/0 sable paint brush in olive drab.....
Your analysis of the weld technique is spot on. Having taken welding classes at a college we used that technique all the time, it makes for a stronger weld. The angle is more extreme than I was taught, but that is thicker plate than we had to work with. I am wondering how the heat of that much welding would effect the surrounding metal, and if there was a covering plate put on over the patch.
SIRNEIL
Joined: July 30, 2007
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 09:50 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I am wondering how the heat of that much welding would effect the surrounding metal, and if there was a covering plate put on over the patch.
i wouldn't have thought that the heat from welding in such a small area would travel that far through the cold steel.i cant see why they would want to plug such a small hole when a patch over the top would be just as good.its not as if it would take a direct hit in that exact place again....
neil
exer
Joined: November 27, 2004
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 10:27 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Icant see why they would want to plug such a small hole when a patch over the top would be just as good.its not as if it would take a direct hit in that exact place again...
I think it has to do with the new crew, as I understand it the tank would be cleaned inside, patched, resprayed and issued to a new crew who might not care to know that their tank has already been knocked out once.
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextI am wondering how the heat of that much welding would effect the surrounding metal, and if there was a covering plate put on over the patch.
i wouldn't have thought that the heat from welding in such a small area would travel that far through the cold steel.i cant see why they would want to plug such a small hole when a patch over the top would be just as good.its not as if it would take a direct hit in that exact place again....
neil
Good point, we usually worked with 1/4 plate maybe 6" by 12" at the most. For certification we used 1/2 plates, and those glowed red by the time we were done. The steel of a side plate would make a good heat sink. The patch would be the weakest link in the armor.
SIRNEIL
Joined: July 30, 2007
KitMaker: 658 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:15 AM UTC
also just imagine the damage caused inside the tank by the flame cutting of the entry point of the projectile.in the black & white photo you can see were the heat has discolour'd the sorounding steel there would have been a lot of black bits of steel and slag blasted into the interior of the tank and a hell of a lot of flames........
neil.
neil.
KurtLaughlin
Joined: January 18, 2003
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 01:34 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextI am wondering how the heat of that much welding would effect the surrounding metal, and if there was a covering plate put on over the patch.
i wouldn't have thought that the heat from welding in such a small area would travel that far through the cold steel.i cant see why they would want to plug such a small hole when a patch over the top would be just as good.its not as if it would take a direct hit in that exact place again....
neil
Good point, we usually worked with 1/4 plate maybe 6" by 12" at the most. For certification we used 1/2 plates, and those glowed red by the time we were done. The steel of a side plate would make a good heat sink. The patch would be the weakest link in the armor.
Homogeneous armor was/is essentially air-hardening tool steel. When heated air cooling acted as the quench. The weakest part would actually be the weld holding the patch unlike most weldments where the weld is stronger. While the patch would be armor plate the weld was 308 or 309 alloy stainless steel because it was less prone to trap hydrogen and cause cracking in the base metals.
Note also that the patch is square rather than round because it allows the welder to make a better weld. The geometry of the electrode, the molten metal puddle, the weld joint, and gravity all are critical to making a good weld. With a square there are only two geometries. With a circle, the geometry is constantly changing as you go around the circumference.
KL
m4sherman
Joined: January 18, 2006
KitMaker: 1,866 posts
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Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 - 04:04 PM UTC
Quoted Text
Quoted TextQuoted TextQuoted TextI am wondering how the heat of that much welding would effect the surrounding metal, and if there was a covering plate put on over the patch.
i wouldn't have thought that the heat from welding in such a small area would travel that far through the cold steel.i cant see why they would want to plug such a small hole when a patch over the top would be just as good.its not as if it would take a direct hit in that exact place again....
neil
Good point, we usually worked with 1/4 plate maybe 6" by 12" at the most. For certification we used 1/2 plates, and those glowed red by the time we were done. The steel of a side plate would make a good heat sink. The patch would be the weakest link in the armor.
Homogeneous armor was/is essentially air-hardening tool steel. When heated air cooling acted as the quench. The weakest part would actually be the weld holding the patch unlike most weldments where the weld is stronger. While the patch would be armor plate the weld was 308 or 309 alloy stainless steel because it was less prone to trap hydrogen and cause cracking in the base metals.
Note also that the patch is square rather than round because it allows the welder to make a better weld. The geometry of the electrode, the molten metal puddle, the weld joint, and gravity all are critical to making a good weld. With a square there are only two geometries. With a circle, the geometry is constantly changing as you go around the circumference.
KL
Kurt, you are correct, I was saying that the "patch" was the weakest part of the armor, and that includes the welds. In metalurgy class we learned that the weld was typically the weak link. The teachers had numerous examples, but no tank hulls, to show us, which was a real shame. I was not aware that stainless weld rods were used in WWII. I do know that there were some darn good welders back then.
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