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Armor/AFV: What If?
For those who like to build hypothetical or alternate history versions of armor/AFVs.
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Mars King Tiger Project
Warsawpact
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 06:47 AM UTC
Hi everyone.

I'm about to start a Mars King Tiger build and i'd like to get your thought, comments and ideas on the subject on how a "what if" German Ting Tiger on Mars might have looked like and the modifications needed to enable it to fight on Mars.
I'll try and get a good mix of "unreal realism". i.e. something that somehow might have been possible from an alternative history ("what if") perspective but nothing fo farfetched such as anti-gravity and laser weapons etc.


I've been doing some brainstorming on my own and here's a few things that i've thought of:

Engine?
Some sort of closed loop hydrogen peroxide turbine engine, replacing the V-12 Maybach HL 230 P30 engine used on earth. A closed loop engine will be used due to the immense storms that rages on Mars, preventing dust/ sand to get inside the system.

Weapon / W-systems?
The 8.8 cm KwK 43 L/71 main canon used on Earth will also be used on Mars. Due to the low gravity the 88mm canon will be able to fire at much, much longer ranges than on Earth and therefor some sort of upgraded sight/ aiming mechanism might be needed.
As for close defence ,for those pesky allied mars troopers, the MG42 at the top hatch will do.
Smoke launchers will be replaced my some sort of chaff launchers which insted of firing of smoke will explode and create a shimmering cloud which will disturb/ temporarily blind enemies.
The Mars King Tiger will fire the latest in Axis weaponlogy, the Thor Combustable Anti-Tank Shell. The 88mm canon will actually fire the entire shell but as the warhead leaves the barrel the cartrigde will evaporate from the heat.

Tracks?
I have been thinking about putting legs on it but whit weighing almost 70 metric tons, having legs on it will probably just make the legs bore down into the surface and get stuck. And wheels might not actually spread the massive weight on a big enough area to make it effective. So tracks might be the best choice?

Hull?
I'm thinking of a "smooth" looking King Tiger whitout any zimmerits ( Although the threath of Allied Mars troopers is still there, zimmerits would pick up to much dust/ sand on the hull) and no tools etc. clamped to the hull as on Earth due to the impossible task of making battlefield repairs in very low gravity, and sand storms. It would be quite pointless.
It would ofcourse be coated whit special anti-radiation coating and a " smoothener" that will make the sand and dust alot harder to stick on the hull.

General inside ( oxygen, the crew compartment etc.)?
Heat for the crew compartment will come from a generator powered by the main turbine engine and so will the electricity. The crew will be plugged in to a "main hub" of oxygen by connecting their oxymasks to each of the sepperate crews output.

Crew?
The King Tiger crew will be composed mainly by veterans from the Moon which have proven their worth on the Lunar front. They will NOT wear any survival suits of any kind because the Mars temparature is around -63 Celcius which is not alot but leasons learned during the Great German Victory in Stalingrad has increased the sofistication in cold weather gear, so the tankers uniforms could theoreticaly could be used outside the tank. The uniforms will be composed of a heavy duty Dark Organge jacket whit White pants and the always used Oxymask can be unplugged from the main oxygen output in the tank to a small emergency canister which will alow the crew to excape a damaged vehicle.

Camoflage?
Despite from being dark orange/ red, i have no clue!?
But something to match the color of Mars



Please don't be afraid to come whit ideas or comments on what you think!


P.S
Thanks to Warning for inspiring me to finaly do this project that i've thought about for a long time!
D.S


Warning
Joined: August 15, 2008
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 07:10 AM UTC
Hello.


Quoted Text


Engine?
Some sort of closed loop hydrogen peroxide turbine engine, replacing the V-12 Maybach HL 230 P30 engine used on earth. A closed loop engine will be used due to the immense storms that rages on Mars, preventing dust/ sand to get inside the system.



With the lack of air intakes and exhausts the rear of the KT could provide a good space for storage of tools and supplies. An angular hump with access hatches could represent this well.


Quoted Text


They will NOT wear any survival suits of any kind because the Mars temparature is around -63 Celcius which is not alot but leasons learned during the Great German Victory in Stalingrad has increased the sofistication in cold weather gear, so the tankers uniforms could theoreticaly could be used outside the tank.



Do not forget that the pressure on Mars will mean that some sort of protective suit will be necessary. Without this, when the hatch is opened to fire the MG42 the crew will pop and should a storm be raging the empty husks will be sand-blasted.

On a similar note, any exposed workings (the turret / hull joint, the wheels and suspension) will need much more protection from the elements.

Go hard.

Jedite
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 07:22 AM UTC
Hy there!

The projet sounds realy interesting.

Tracks:
I think the basic tank track idea is the best one. But with much bigger suspension and wider tracks. Like the winter tracks on the russian front. Big buggy wheels are good to 4 or 5 on either side of the tank.

Crew:
In ww2 the survival chance of a tank crew was realy low. On the mars is much worse. I think the best should be a to create the tanks to close the tank hermetically. So the crew would have the best latitude, without any disturbing tubes and other stuff on their faces.

Weapons:
The system you described is great. The MG42 should be like on the "Hezter". So the captien could fire with it, without exiting the tank.
The smoke launcher should be changed to little rocketlaunchers like in the a mechwarrior game. Maybe two vulcan cannon, or they should be changeable.

The camoflage is good with redbrown, red rust and sand like colors.

The hull is good as it is, but without the weldings. It should be totally smooth.

And for last, I would use the Mouse or E100 tanks . They have bigger room inside and after the war on earth the tiger would be not up to date.
210cav
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 07:36 AM UTC
I don't think you are kidding
Warsawpact
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 08:26 AM UTC

Quoted Text



Do not forget that the pressure on Mars will mean that some sort of protective suit will be necessary. Without this, when the hatch is opened to fire the MG42 the crew will pop and should a storm be raging the empty husks will be sand-blasted.

On a similar note, any exposed workings (the turret / hull joint, the wheels and suspension) will need much more protection from the elements.




Wooow, i thought you could do bunny jumps on Mars as you could do on the moon. Or am i mixing it up , gravity and pressure?

Looks like i need some more time concerning the Crew.

Whit weather protection i've been leening towards some sort of heavy fabric "curtain" for the wheels. Just like on Tamiyas dessertised Challanger 2. http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/35274challenger2/index.htm

The MG42 used for close defence will be remotely operated from the inside so there will be no need for the crew to get out and fire it, just like whit the Hetzer tank.

Jedite

Quoted Text

And for last, I would use the Mouse or E100 tanks . They have bigger room inside and after the war on earth the tiger would be not up to date.



I'm goint to use the Tiger Tank. No changes there.

Your camo idea is duly noted.
pimpdogbert
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 07:39 PM UTC
Yah fer shure I would use the primer red brown the factories used. Orrrr make some sort of red brown "ambush" scheme you know with varying shades of the color maybe a lil brown for good measure. Or you could do a white KT for the battles over the precious ice caps. But remember the dust on Mars will be 10 times worse due to the atmosphereic storms on the surface ( which by the way also have harsh lightning to boot) Oh I had an idea to make the bigger scopes out of the nachtjager scopes of course with modification. I cant wait to see what your KT will come out to.

Cheers Alex
Jedite
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 08:11 PM UTC
For the weapon you should consider to change the 88 for a gatling gun.


It would be freakin' awsome.

Or the Mg42 to a smaller one:

Jedite
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 08:35 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Your camo idea is duly noted.



Sorry about that.

So here is my full idea about the camo.

The "Hinterhalt" camo used by the germans by the end of the war should do the trick. The base should be red sand or something simillar. The two other color maybe redbrown and dust. The little spot which represented the leaves in ww2 should represent the stones on the earth, againts the UFO-s attacking from the air.
Maybe chocolate brown should do the trick on this one.

I hope this is not so duly.
Warning
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 09:57 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Whit weather protection i've been leening towards some sort of heavy fabric "curtain" for the wheels. Just like on Tamiyas dessertised Challanger 2.



Nice idea. You could also hang a heavy fabric curtain aroun the entire lower half of the vehicle. This would stop dust reaching both sides of the tracks and aid in disguising the silhouette. A further idea would be to hang a turret skirt to cover the turret / hull join and further mask the shape.

Features might have to be designed to either be dust protected or to recess into the main hull in case of harsh storms. The front MG ball mount may be better replaced with a smaller mount in a deep circular opening which could be easily covered. The main gun could feature a shroud (like a jet engine thrust reverser. See below.) that could be operated from within the fighting compartment. It might also be a good idea to cover the vision blocks during storms and rely on newly developed radar systems. This 'hull down' KT concept would have far fewer distinctive features but would be better suited to the environment.

Thrust reverser.



Warsawpact
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Posted: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 - 11:35 PM UTC
Norbert:

I don't know about replacing the 88mm for a Gatlingun. Seems a bit to sci-fi for me. Although the smaller Mini gun for close defence got me thinking...how about some sort of twin linked Mg42 or something?


Quoted Text

The "Hinterhalt" camo used by the germans by the end of the war should do the trick. The base should be red sand or something simillar. The two other color maybe redbrown and dust. The little spot which represented the leaves in ww2 should represent the stones on the earth, againts the UFO-s attacking from the air.
Maybe chocolate brown should do the trick on this one.



This was what i could find on Hinterhalt camo http://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/pics/wh_sdkfz_camo-001.jpg

And i think the crew wouldnt have to worry about the UFO's...they would be German.
Have you read about the Nazi experiments whit Flying Saucers and their Antarctican base?


Alex


Quoted Text

Yah fer shure I would use the primer red brown the factories used. Orrrr make some sort of red brown "ambush" scheme you know with varying shades of the color maybe a lil brown for good measure. Or you could do a white KT for the battles over the precious ice caps. But remember the dust on Mars will be 10 times worse due to the atmosphereic storms on the surface ( which by the way also have harsh lightning to boot) Oh I had an idea to make the bigger scopes out of the nachtjager scopes of course with modification. I cant wait to see what your KT will come out to.



Some sort of brown-ish toned red color will definatly be painted on it. Although i'll just have to find the right tone.

The harsh lighting will not be a major problem due to the looking glas which the crew uses to see out will have the same kind of function as a welders protection glass. The glass will tint itself and darken as a reaction to sudden flashes or bright light. Although their chaff launchers are designed to overload the enemies version of the tinted glass, litteraly frying the particles that tints upon reacting to bright light.

I'll make some sort of modefied IR scopes along whit an Adleranblick ( Eagle Sight) radar that the Marsian King Tiger uses.


Warning


Quoted Text

Nice idea. You could also hang a heavy fabric curtain aroun the entire lower half of the vehicle. This would stop dust reaching both sides of the tracks and aid in disguising the silhouette. A further idea would be to hang a turret skirt to cover the turret / hull join and further mask the shape.

Features might have to be designed to either be dust protected or to recess into the main hull in case of harsh storms. The front MG ball mount may be better replaced with a smaller mount in a deep circular opening which could be easily covered. The main gun could feature a shroud (like a jet engine thrust reverser. See below.) that could be operated from within the fighting compartment. It might also be a good idea to cover the vision blocks during storms and rely on newly developed radar systems. This 'hull down' KT concept would have far fewer distinctive features but would be better suited to the environment.



The frontal MG ball will feature a form of "slide in place" plate which will cover the opening as the MG is retracted into the tank.
Some form of thrust reversal cover might be applied to cover the vision glasses. Either that or the glass is realy thick, just like bulletproof glas, and will be in no danger to getting blasted by the storms. Although having unblocked vision ports might not help inside a storm where there's up to zero visiblity.

The Adleranblick Radar will be featured on the Marsian King Tigers as well as most other tanks on Mars.
But what about on the Moon Tigers?

The 88mm gun will have some sort of protection at the opening, preferably one just like the reverse thrustors.

The turret joints and the like will be sealed by heavy rubber linings that are vaccum sealed. But as for the lower part of the tank, suspension, wheels etc. some sort of heavy duty dust cover might be in order. A curtain of heavy fabric protecting the lower parts of the King Tiger will probably be the way to go!?

Well guys, my fingers are starting to itch. Just opened the King Tiger kit and the plastic smell that got out when i opened it...yumm!
I think i'm going to slowly and methodicaly start building the turret which is by far the easiest part of the tank. I'll add things on the turret as i go along and get new ideas.
But as for the main hull and the rest of the tank i'll have to wait untill im absolutly shure on how it should be.

Thanks for all the tips and ideas!!!
They have realy helped me, so keep 'em coming!

Best regards /

Warsawpact
Warsawpact
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Posted: Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 12:01 AM UTC
Ohh, i almost forgott!
The kit i'll be using for this project is the DML 1/35 King Tiger ( Henschel Turret) Sd. Kfz. 128 Kit.No 6208.


I'll also be using different thickness of copper/ steel thread for the cables/ wireing on the KT together whit spare bits left over from other builds.


I've got over 525+ parts of rock and roll in this kit to look forward to


Jedite
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Posted: Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 12:09 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I don't know about replacing the 88mm for a Gatlingun. Seems a bit to sci-fi for me.



Yeah! King Tiger on the Mars isn't sci-fi.

Look at this pictures:



With the turret length of the 88 it would be so cool. It would penetrate armor like hot knife the butter.
With 40 or 50mm AP rounds with plutonium shell. Now thats a killer.

On "Hinterhalt" camo i ment this:


or this:



or maybe this:
Warsawpact
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Posted: Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 08:30 AM UTC
Hi all.

I've just taken the first small steps on my Mars KT!

I'm trying as hard as i can to somehow visualize just how i can build i.e. the IR and radar and still make it fit into the King Tiger "esthetics". But after 4 hours i can now say that the modefied IR + gunner sights are done!
Although i'm no self promotor by any way, but i must say.....good god it's starting to look bad ass already, and i've only done the IR's. ( I hope you'll like them once i get the photos up)

So, how did i go about the IR's then?
Well, at first i though of making some sort of enlarged modificated version of the Nachtjager IR's as can be seen on .i.e. Trumpeters E-100. Although if they would actually be converted into marsian service i personaly belive that would have easy been damaged by the stronger personal weapons used on Mars by Allied mMars Troopes and they would certainly not stand a chanse in one of the violent marsian storms that can at times cover the whole of Mars' equator.
So i went for the more solid, though bulkier version, and "evolved" the tube like design of the Nachjaeger IR's into a armored box that can also houses the gunners sight, a spotlight, and even a small turbo-fan that can activated to counter marsian dust from blowing up to cover the IR sight. The combined Gunners sight/ IR sloped box was placed at the far front, close up to the start of the barrel.

It was during late 46' that the newly deisgned Nachtjaeger Zwei got implemented to Mars tanks due to increasing amount of complaints of breakdowns of the standard Nachtjaeger IR's on mars due to the violent storms, which unlike those used on earth and the Moon who did not suffer from anything even close to storms, and Hitler promissed a newer version for the Mars Panzerarme in his "Exploration of space" speach in Nüremberg 1946.


Next thing to do is the radar!


Norbert
I think that the Gatling gun might better fit the allies, perhaps some sort of secret wepon developed in desperation to counter the Lunar Tigers / Marsian Tiger / KT's or an Anti Air weapon against the Luftwaffe?
I know that King Tigers on Mars is a bit "sci-fi" but i'm going for what actually existed during ww2 and implement it to Mars though whit a few tweeks and modification. I.e. sci-fi but not over the top!


There are a few other things i've started thinking about.

Unit markings?
What king of markings should be used on the KT? The same unit markings as back on Earth (standard german) or some form of space-ish markings?
Any ideas on what those might be?

The rear hatch of the turret?
What could this possibly be used as?
Emergency escape hatch, airlock, or something?


Warning
I hope that you get that Tiger kit your looking for soon. I'm starting to get quite excited on how your Moon Tiger will look like and what you'll use on it.

Alex.
Looking forward to seeing your Allied Space Tank whatever what version you might choose Sherman/ Firefly/ M6 heavy tank!?


Take care /

Warsawpact






UncaBret
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Posted: Thursday, August 28, 2008 - 05:25 PM UTC

Quoted Text


The 8.8 cm KwK 43 L/71 main canon used on Earth will also be used on Mars. Due to the low gravity the 88mm canon will be able to fire at much, much longer ranges than on Earth and therefor some sort of upgraded sight/ aiming mechanism might be needed.



Well, that being so, you could shorten the barrel. That would make it somewhat more compact, easier to transport in a spacecraft.
Warsawpact
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Posted: Friday, August 29, 2008 - 02:17 AM UTC
Good afternoon everyone.


Quoted Text



Well, that being so, you could shorten the barrel. That would make it somewhat more compact, easier to transport in a spacecraft.



You just inspired me on how the Axis would freight their armor to other planets, so how about this? :
It was a gifted man by the name Wernher von Braun, the founding father of the Axis space program, that came up whit the idea thats that in order to transaport heavy tanks to other celestial bodies, instead of building rockets of epic proportions, he decided that i.e. Panzer IV's and Tiger tanks would be diveded up inte building blocks ( almost like something from IKEA) and later be put together on the destination by a method called Standard Template Construction. Thanks to the STC the panzers could be easily put together by almost anyone at the end destination. This made the Axis expansion on the moon very rapid.

Although for the longer flights to Mars and beyond he came up whit the idea that the rocket itself would be made out of the materials needed to make the Panzers. The Crafts/ Rockets would simply be canibalised on arrival and later be made into tanks by axis WR-P's ( Weltraum Pioneers / Space Pioneers) on Mars.

I've thought of opening a yet another thread, only for the WIP documentation.
But THIS THREAD WILL SERVE AS MY W.I.P.

So... ladies and gentlemen, whit no further ado, here's the photos as promissed:











I'm currently doing the basics of the turret so i'll add a couple more electircal wires to the commanders IR box, straighten it up, filling up some uneven surfaces among other things.

I've ditched the idea of having a rail mounted weapon at the commanders hatch for close defence and went for the IR box for the commander to get an almost 360 degree infra red field of vision instead. The only eapon for close defence will be the the MG ball at the front.


:)


......MARS IS RISING!

/
Warsawpact
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Posted: Friday, August 29, 2008 - 04:04 AM UTC
Looking great.

May I suggest some form of locking mecanism for the hatch and rear door.

tankmodeler
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Posted: Friday, August 29, 2008 - 08:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Engine?
Some sort of closed loop hydrogen peroxide turbine engine, replacing the V-12 Maybach HL 230 P30 engine used on earth. A closed loop engine will be used due to the immense storms that rages on Mars, preventing dust/ sand to get inside the system.


Dust, and, of course, a complete lack of oxygen. Remember, you need to bring your fuel AND your oxydizer. And, if you're closed loop, your waste products need to be collected and stored until return to base. With the recent discoveries of water on Mars you could go to an open loop system & vent the exhaust (water vapour) overboard to lessen the system weight, volume and complexity.

Quoted Text


Tracks?
I have been thinking about putting legs on it but whit weighing almost 70 metric tons, having legs on it will probably just make the legs bore down into the surface and get stuck. And wheels might not actually spread the massive weight on a big enough area to make it effective. So tracks might be the best choice?


The force of gravity on Mars is approximately 1/3 Earth standard, so a 70 ton mass Tiger II would weigh only approximately 23 tons on Mars, about the same as a LAV III/Stryker. Wheels would be a very viable option for enhance mobility on road surfaces, but tracks would provide better off-road mobility for the same reasons they do here on Earth. Even though the gravitational forces are less on Mars, the structural capability of the soil is independent of gravity and would be pretty much the same as it is here on Earth. The hard packed soil of mars could support a 70 ton weight as well as Earth's soil could.

One benefit, though would be that such a massive suspension would _not_ be needed. You could go with narrower tracks, fewer road wheels and smaller mechanical components.

Quoted Text


Hull?
I'm thinking of a "smooth" looking King Tiger whitout any zimmerits ( Although the threath of Allied Mars troopers is still there, zimmerits would pick up to much dust/ sand on the hull) and no tools etc. clamped to the hull as on Earth due to the impossible task of making battlefield repairs in very low gravity, and sand storms. It would be quite pointless.


Don't understand this at all. Low gravity would make repairs much easier, not much harder. Now, the low (virtually nil) atmosphereic pressure and the need for pressure suits would make repair more difficult, but Astronauts on the ISS are making repairs in an environment much harsher than Mars, so it would be very possible to make repairs.

Quoted Text


General inside ( oxygen, the crew compartment etc.)?
Heat for the crew compartment will come from a generator powered by the main turbine engine and so will the electricity.


Well, heat could come from collecting the waste heat from the main engine, no need for a separate generator for that. Power, well a take-off from the main engine would supply main power, but an auxilliary souce might be needed for when the engine is turned off.

Quoted Text


Crew?
They will NOT wear any survival suits of any kind because the Mars temparature is around -63 Celcius which is not alot but leasons learned during the Great German Victory in Stalingrad has increased the sofistication in cold weather gear, so the tankers uniforms could theoreticaly could be used outside the tank. The uniforms will be composed of a heavy duty Dark Organge jacket whit White pants and the always used Oxymask can be unplugged from the main oxygen output in the tank to a small emergency canister which will alow the crew to excape a damaged vehicle.


No, they definitely will need full pressure suits. The atmosphereic pressure on the Mars surface is approximately 1/100th of Earth standard. Their blood would boil if not in a suit.

Quoted Text


Camoflage?
Despite from being dark orange/ red, i have no clue!?
But something to match the color of Mars


Google the Mars Phoenix Lander for some very recent (like some as of today) photos of the Martian surface. It isn't dark orange/red, its more like a light dusty pink beige.

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=625&cID=11

Paul
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Posted: Friday, August 29, 2008 - 09:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Wooow, i thought you could do bunny jumps on Mars as you could do on the moon. Or am i mixing it up , gravity and pressure?


Looks like it.

A person on the moon would still be able to do "bunny hops" but only about 1/2 as high as on the Moon as Mar's gravity is twice that of the Moon.

Mars surface atmosphereic pressure is 1/100 that of Earth sea level. Indistinguishable from hard vacuum to an unprotected human.

Oh, and because there is almost no atmosphere and no magnetic field on Mars, radiation exposure on the surface would be brutal, even though the planet is twice as far from the Sun as Earth. The total amount of radiation getting to Mars is abuot 1/4 that as hits Earth, but our atmosphere & magnetic field deflect the vast majority of it. On Mars, you would fry without a protective suit, just like on the Moon.

I know this is a "what if" but I am providing a few facts about the Mars environment to stimulate some brainstorming that takes into account the local conditions and would thus make the resulting model feel more "real". For instance, the discussion about suspension skirts would be very effective to lessen visual signatures of moving vehicles.

:)

Paul
Warsawpact
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Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 02:07 AM UTC
Warning


Quoted Text

Looking great.

May I suggest some form of locking mecanism for the hatch and rear door.


Thanks
I'll see what i can do.


Paul

Quoted Text

Dust, and, of course, a complete lack of oxygen. Remember, you need to bring your fuel AND your oxydizer. And, if you're closed loop, your waste products need to be collected and stored until return to base. With the recent discoveries of water on Mars you could go to an open loop system & vent the exhaust (water vapour) overboard to lessen the system weight, volume and complexity.



I'll go whit the closed loop. Waste products will be purged from the vehicle through a small vaccumized airlocks that will "dump" it straight out onto Mars.
Bringing the oxyderzer and the like to power the tank is no problem.




Quoted Text

The force of gravity on Mars is approximately 1/3 Earth standard, so a 70 ton mass Tiger II would weigh only approximately 23 tons on Mars, about the same as a LAV III/Stryker. Wheels would be a very viable option for enhance mobility on road surfaces, but tracks would provide better off-road mobility for the same reasons they do here on Earth. Even though the gravitational forces are less on Mars, the structural capability of the soil is independent of gravity and would be pretty much the same as it is here on Earth. The hard packed soil of mars could support a 70 ton weight as well as Earth's soil could.

One benefit, though would be that such a massive suspension would _not_ be needed. You could go with narrower tracks, fewer road wheels and smaller mechanical components.



I will go whit tracks on this one. part because of the "looks" and part because it could be to easy to incapasitate souch a large tank just by popping the wheels. Although i'll put a curtain over the sides and the wheels may well be hardened they would probably not be able to stand against the massive impact and force of anti-armor weapons. Although track arent indestructable either


Quoted Text

Well, heat could come from collecting the waste heat from the main engine, no need for a separate generator for that. Power, well a take-off from the main engine would supply main power, but an auxilliary souce might be needed for when the engine is turned off.



The generator can work both ways. Either by easening the load from the engine a little bit AND/ OR be used as a back up system for the electricity, oxygen pump and the general life support systems if the engine fails or gets damaged.


Quoted Text

No, they definitely will need full pressure suits. The atmosphereic pressure on the Mars surface is approximately 1/100th of Earth standard. Their blood would boil if not in a suit.



No, i've decided that they will not wear any pressure suits.
But why on Earth wount they have any suits? Well, this is strictly from my personal point of view.
As the need for crews to actually go outside the tank on Mars will be very virtually non existant except for some kind of emergency. BUT as tank combat being as dangerous as it is the actual life expectancy of the crew are very low, just like in the later part of WW2.
Pressure and oxygen will be generated by on board pumps etc. Wearing heavy suits ( probably made out of lead or lead lineings to counter the radiation outside) inside the realtive cramped conditions of the tanks would be quite straining for the crew due to the sheer weight even in low gravity. And the tank will have speciall anti-radiation materials built into it. Why go outside and repair something when you have Berg-Tigers to tow you back to base ?
Maybe some sort of emergency suits could be needed to there's a subben complete failiure of the life support system. Likte those survival suits seamen have, but that will only work for a specified amount of time once exposed to the harsh conditions.
I'm leening towards those bright "foil-ish" looking suits + a helmet.


Quoted Text

I know this is a "what if" but I am providing a few facts about the Mars environment to stimulate some brainstorming that takes into account the local conditions and would thus make the resulting model feel more "real". For instance, the discussion about suspension skirts would be very effective to lessen visual signatures of moving vehicles.



Yes indeed. One have to keep in mind that the build will be as much reflected by the ruling conditions on Mars as well as a made up "what if" background.
Thanks for the info Paul, i'll definatly keep it in mind as i go along.


BUILD UPDATE

I've added a few detail such as PE parts, more wireing, but now i'm stuck on the radar!!!
I know where to place the radar... but i'm not sure how what kind of radar to use?
Any ideas people?

Here's a few radar examples:
Ball

Early radar

Dish

Ship radar

pimpdogbert
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Posted: Saturday, August 30, 2008 - 03:31 PM UTC
Hmmm well the early would suit the tank but you would have to add arrays all round the tank I think,but I'm not too shure how they work, but I thought that they were only foward searching, short ranged and prone to interference. But from a modelling aspect I would use the dome with wires comming from it.

Cheers Alex
Warning
Joined: August 15, 2008
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Posted: Sunday, August 31, 2008 - 02:05 AM UTC

Quoted Text


No, i've decided that they will not wear any pressure suits.
But why on Earth wount they have any suits? Well, this is strictly from my personal point of view.
As the need for crews to actually go outside the tank on Mars will be very virtually non existant except for some kind of emergency. BUT as tank combat being as dangerous as it is the actual life expectancy of the crew are very low, just like in the later part of WW2.
Pressure and oxygen will be generated by on board pumps etc. Wearing heavy suits ( probably made out of lead or lead lineings to counter the radiation outside) inside the realtive cramped conditions of the tanks would be quite straining for the crew due to the sheer weight even in low gravity. And the tank will have speciall anti-radiation materials built into it. Why go outside and repair something when you have Berg-Tigers to tow you back to base ?
Maybe some sort of emergency suits could be needed to there's a subben complete failiure of the life support system. Likte those survival suits seamen have, but that will only work for a specified amount of time once exposed to the harsh conditions.
I'm leening towards those bright "foil-ish" looking suits + a helmet.



Hmm...

If the vehicle takes any shot that would penetrate the hull, even slightly, the crew will die unless they put on their emergency suits in time. If I was a member of the crew then I would have my suit on all of the time. Just in case.

Keep going.

tankmodeler
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Posted: Sunday, August 31, 2008 - 06:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


BUT as tank combat being as dangerous as it is the actual life expectancy of the crew are very low, just like in the later part of WW2.


Actually, AFV crews had relatively low casualty rates all through the war. Even at the end, infantry casualty rates were miles more than AFV crews. Holing a tank is easy, but most of the crew suually got out.

It's your tank, of course, but they really could have suits.




Quoted Text

Wearing heavy suits ( probably made out of lead or lead lineings to counter the radiation outside) inside the realtive cramped conditions of the tanks would be quite straining for the crew due to the sheer weight even in low gravity.


Er, if they need lead in the suits inside the vehicle to counter radiation, and they don't have it, they all die, don't they? All the crews are dead before they fight their first battle. No, radiation protection has to be built into the vehicle as you say and the suits can be lighter & just pressure containing. Additional oversuits can exist that deal with the cold and the exterior radiation in emergency situations. Apollo EVA suits weighed several hundred pounds, on Earth, but were well within the crews' ability to work in when on the Moon. The same would happen on Mars.[/quote]

Quoted Text


Maybe some sort of emergency suits could be needed to there's a subben complete failiure of the life support system. Likte those survival suits seamen have, but that will only work for a specified amount of time once exposed to the harsh conditions.
I'm leaning towards those bright "foil-ish" looking suits + a helmet.


Quoted Text


Hmm...

If the vehicle takes any shot that would penetrate the hull, even slightly, the crew will die unless they put on their emergency suits in time. If I was a member of the crew then I would have my suit on all of the time. Just in case.



Quite true. All the air in an AFV would be evacuated through a 20 or 30mm diameter hole in under a minute. Inside an AFV, there's no way to put on a suit, you have to be wearing it all the time to have a chance.

Paul
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Posted: Sunday, August 31, 2008 - 10:11 PM UTC
The tank would have built in anti-radiation materials to counter the interstellar radiation.

What steers me away a bit from using some kind of suits for the tanker is that they would perhaps be so utterly un-functional inside the tank when they already have pressure/ ant radiation protection etc. inside the vehicle. I think that the space suit technology would be very crude and bulky compared to todays austronauts.
Would they sit in their suits just because if that fatal penetrrating hit would come?
But if that penetrating hit would come, breaching the hull and letting all the pressure out, then they would certainly die whitout a suit.
But wouldnt the enemy shot bounce around inside the tank, smashing everything inside it to peaces, including the crew in their suits?
From what i've seen the ISS crew and NASA crew doesnt have their their full rigged suits on inside the space craft. Even though there's a constant threat of small space rocks penetrating the hull.


Ah well, i think the subject concerning the suits would be best discussed once i finished the King Tiger and started whit the diorama and the figures.
But please bear in mind that i'm very greatfull for the inputt and feedback! Whitout a doubt!
It will make the King Tiger build so much more realistic.



As for the Radar.

I'm still somewhat stuck on it.
Though i've figured out what kind of radar to use ( see pic) i still have to build it, which i'm in the process of duing, though painstacingly slow.

( One of the two radars on the Gepard Flakpanzer, by the way)


Updated W.i.p photos will be uploaded whitin 24 hours.


A big thanks goes out to everyone for your ideas and feedback...they are a great inspiration for me!


Whit best regards
/
Warsawpact
Nicklloyd
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Posted: Monday, September 01, 2008 - 03:35 AM UTC
Cool although i thi k the gatling gun would of made it look a bit more meaner, and they didn't know if there were stronger enermy tanks on mars and maybe add some rocket launchers to the side of the hull?
Warsawpact
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Posted: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 - 06:22 AM UTC
A much needed update!

The turret is looking very neat right about now, since i've managed to get everything in place exept for the radar. Though i've finished modelling the radar i still have to decide if i'm to fix it to it's "folded up" possition ontop of an armored periscope or in it's "folded down" possition.
A few PE parts has been added to the turret as well as a small pericope for the commander to use.

I've just started on the road wheels as well as gluing together the main hull. I've taken a quick look at the tracks an they look awfully time consuming to put together but it WILL be done!

As for "fuel" goes i've dug up a old Trumpeter Iraqi T-69 (2) and nicked it's fuel drums wich will be used on the King Tiger.
Here's a rough illustration on how i've planned the rear hull. I'm not so good at painting on the computer ;P


This is the main radar array ( although not the whole unit) I went for the Doppler looking radar that is on the Gepard Flackpanzer.



More pics will be up as soon as my camera batteries are reloaded. They decided to quit on me just as i was about to shoot the final 2 pics


And Warning , how's your quest for that DML 3-1 Tiger Kit going ?


Best greets
/
Warsawpact



 _GOTOTOP