I noticed when I looked through my set of 1/35 figures that there is a significant disparity in the sizes from different manufacturers. Verlinden and Custom Dioramics figures are noticeably larger than Tamiya's, and Hornet heads are the smaller size as well.
Yes, real life people are different sizes and all that, but this seems too much. So who does the more accurate figures in terms of size?
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Military figures of all shapes and sizes.
Military figures of all shapes and sizes.
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1/35 figures-who's doing them right?
long_tom
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Posted: Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 05:40 PM UTC
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Sunday, October 19, 2008 - 09:25 PM UTC
Hey Tom
I know that companies such as Alpine and Helo are finicky when it comes to getting the average WWII soldiers height correct. There is work done in the scaling process to gain a 'mean average' height so there are no figures like Verlinden's "Paul Bunyan"
That said, there were clear differences in height in WWII, and to model this accurately/convincingly, they have to look in scale body wise with maybe just longer/shorter limbs... And so long as the equipment is the same 1:35 scale across the board, you can get away with a bit of diversity...
Hope this helps
Brad
P.S. You can work it out and individual figures' scale yourself of course, but I can see you are trying to establish this prior to purchase...
I know that companies such as Alpine and Helo are finicky when it comes to getting the average WWII soldiers height correct. There is work done in the scaling process to gain a 'mean average' height so there are no figures like Verlinden's "Paul Bunyan"
That said, there were clear differences in height in WWII, and to model this accurately/convincingly, they have to look in scale body wise with maybe just longer/shorter limbs... And so long as the equipment is the same 1:35 scale across the board, you can get away with a bit of diversity...
Hope this helps
Brad
P.S. You can work it out and individual figures' scale yourself of course, but I can see you are trying to establish this prior to purchase...
long_tom
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Posted: Monday, October 20, 2008 - 03:41 AM UTC
It's not just height, it's thickness as well. Hornet heads are thinner than Verlinden heads, and that's where it's most noticeable.
HeavyArty
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Posted: Monday, October 20, 2008 - 03:48 AM UTC
Some people have bigger heads than others as well. Best bet is to find some figures you like and use them. If there are size variations, it will mirror reality. I don't really see the issue with them.
Ironmike
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Posted: Monday, October 20, 2008 - 04:03 AM UTC
I have found that Dragon figures go well with Hornet heads for the most part. Sometimes the Hornet heads are a bit thin and the necks bulge out a bit, but once you drill out the Dragon figure's neck area, the head usually slips in nicely. It does seem that companies like Verlinden, Tamyia and others are just a bit larger.
Ironmike
Ironmike
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Posted: Monday, October 20, 2008 - 04:06 AM UTC
Tom, there are a few companies that produce figures that are overscaled. I can't comment on Custom Dioramics, but Verlinden is known as one of these. Their figs are closer to 1/32 than 1/35.
Mike
Mike
Posted: Monday, October 20, 2008 - 07:58 AM UTC
I had a Legend figure once which was the scale size of a 10 year old kid. And a Verlinden one whose feet were nearly 18" long in scale...
I just chose not to use either of them.
Hobby Fan, Jaguar, some Verlinden, all seem to scale up just right for me, Dragon seem a bit "puffy" and Tamiya like their faces are made of rubber... JMHO
I just chose not to use either of them.
Hobby Fan, Jaguar, some Verlinden, all seem to scale up just right for me, Dragon seem a bit "puffy" and Tamiya like their faces are made of rubber... JMHO
Hollowpoint
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Posted: Monday, October 20, 2008 - 05:14 PM UTC
I agree with most of what has been said on this thread. I think Brad hit the nail on the head by pointing out that people come in different sizes, but the equipment needs to be consistent from trooper to trooper.
I like this photo to demonstrate the varying sizes and shapes of U.S. soldiers in World War II.
I like this photo to demonstrate the varying sizes and shapes of U.S. soldiers in World War II.
HONEYCUT
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Posted: Monday, October 20, 2008 - 07:03 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I like this photo to demonstrate the varying sizes and shapes of U.S. soldiers in World War II.
Hey Bob, That is the exact photo I was trying to locate to illustrate my point
long_tom
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Posted: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 08:44 AM UTC
Neat picture!
But all the same, forget about mixing 1/32 and 1/35 figures together. The difference is too much to be convincing.
But all the same, forget about mixing 1/32 and 1/35 figures together. The difference is too much to be convincing.
GeraldOwens
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Posted: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 10:14 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I noticed when I looked through my set of 1/35 figures that there is a significant disparity in the sizes from different manufacturers. Verlinden and Custom Dioramics figures are noticeably larger than Tamiya's, and Hornet heads are the smaller size as well.
Yes, real life people are different sizes and all that, but this seems too much. So who does the more accurate figures in terms of size?
The ruler is your friend--start measuring. In 1/35th scale, a 5'10" man stands exactly two inches tall (50.8 mm). That was fairly tall for 1944 (these guys grew up during the lean times of the Great Depression, and vitamin-fortified everything wouldn't come along until the 1950's). Author James Jones once said that back then, a six-foot man would always be nicknamed "Stretch," for his height.
You'll find that most classic 1970's/80's Tamiya figures come in around 5'6" or 5'7", which is pretty short even for the 40's era. On the other hand, many older Verlinden figures are huge, some up to 6'9" or so (they were intended to market to the 54mm scale figure collectors as well, and many 54mm figures are actually 1/30th).
As for mixing figures up, while human heads do vary in size, they vary far less than other body dimensions (look at the group photo of the soldiers on the gun barrel again--legs, arms and torsos all vary, but the heads mostly look about the same). You might mix some figures from different makers, maybe even some 1/32nd scale figures for the occasional "basketball player," but try using heads from the same maker so they appear to be the same scale. And of course, equipment was standardized, so make sure rifles, canteens, helmets, etc. all match.
Tarok
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Posted: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 04:16 PM UTC
There are some other factors to be taken into consideration as well.
Firstly, whether the manufacturer determines their mean size of figures by size or by scale. Strictly speaking I suppose they should be using scale sizes, i.e. apply the scale ratio to the desired height of the individual in order to determine the size of the model.
However if the manufacturer works to a mean size, I think that's where you start to have differences. Depending on the manufacturer, some calculate the size of the figure by measuring from heel to top of head (it's generally agreed this is how it should be done), however others measure from heel to eye level (a throwback from toy soldier days).
Next, and I guess this is more prevalent in the case of historical miniatures, but you may find the situation with military figures as well, is the case of modern physical proportions and "heroic" body sizes, rather than the actual average sizes typical of the historical period they belong to.
It's generally agreed that the proportionally (regardless of scale) the human form is about 7 heads tall, whereas in the case of "heroic" proportions (used by artists - seemingly to make the hero appear large, dominant - heroic for lack of a better word) the size tends toward 8.5 heads. Thus resulting in a much larger figure.
So who's doing 'em right? I honestly couldn't tell you, but I'd imagine Alpine is pretty accurate (simply based on the fact that I know how much Taesung focuses on everything being accurate). I measured up some figures for a similar topic in the past - I'll see if I can dig it out and post the same thing here...
HTH
Rudi
Firstly, whether the manufacturer determines their mean size of figures by size or by scale. Strictly speaking I suppose they should be using scale sizes, i.e. apply the scale ratio to the desired height of the individual in order to determine the size of the model.
However if the manufacturer works to a mean size, I think that's where you start to have differences. Depending on the manufacturer, some calculate the size of the figure by measuring from heel to top of head (it's generally agreed this is how it should be done), however others measure from heel to eye level (a throwback from toy soldier days).
Next, and I guess this is more prevalent in the case of historical miniatures, but you may find the situation with military figures as well, is the case of modern physical proportions and "heroic" body sizes, rather than the actual average sizes typical of the historical period they belong to.
It's generally agreed that the proportionally (regardless of scale) the human form is about 7 heads tall, whereas in the case of "heroic" proportions (used by artists - seemingly to make the hero appear large, dominant - heroic for lack of a better word) the size tends toward 8.5 heads. Thus resulting in a much larger figure.
So who's doing 'em right? I honestly couldn't tell you, but I'd imagine Alpine is pretty accurate (simply based on the fact that I know how much Taesung focuses on everything being accurate). I measured up some figures for a similar topic in the past - I'll see if I can dig it out and post the same thing here...
HTH
Rudi
Tarok
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Posted: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 04:48 PM UTC
The following is a post I made in response to the size and proportions of Platoon’s PT-030 Panzergrenadier ‘Hitlerjugend’ 1944 (Original thread here)
For your convenience and the nature of the thread I've added in my calculated "real" proportions after the measured sizes. The first value in milimetres represents the figure measurements, the second value the "real" size in metres (calculated by simply multiplying the milimetres by 0.035), and the third an imperial value (calculated by using Excel's CONVERT(number,from_unit,to_unit) - all values rounded to 2 decimals).
HTH
Rudi
For your convenience and the nature of the thread I've added in my calculated "real" proportions after the measured sizes. The first value in milimetres represents the figure measurements, the second value the "real" size in metres (calculated by simply multiplying the milimetres by 0.035), and the third an imperial value (calculated by using Excel's CONVERT(number,from_unit,to_unit) - all values rounded to 2 decimals).
Quoted Text
...here is the size comparative. First all 4 figures face forward, followed by a shoulder-to-shoulder of the HJ lad to each of the other 3.
The figures are (L-R): Platoon’s PT-030 Panzergrenadier ‘Hitlerjugend’ 1944; Platoon's PT-026 SS Tank Crew, 1944; Alpine's 35057 Max Wünsche LAH Kharkov ; and DML's "Observer" from 6368 2cm Flak Crew.
Now you may be wondering why these figures. Firstly I tried to choose figures that all bore a relatively upright position, and then also figures that I had in a fairly complete state The Platoon figure was chosen as he is also a Tony Williams sculpt and naturally from the same stable. The Alpine figure, because IMO Alpine figures are probably the best resin figures on the market. Finally the DML figure... once again a personal opinion... despite the shocking quality of this particular kit, I still consider DML the market leader and more people visiting this site probably have DML figures that any other plastic brand.
Ok, enough waffle... here are the pics... the measurements follow them...
Now for the dimensions. I took 4 measurements: 1) foot to shoulder height; 2) foot to eye level (i.e. bridge of nose); 3) foot to highest point of head (incl. head gear); 4) shoulder breadth.
Platoon HJ:
1) 41mm 1.43m 4.71ft
2) 47.5mm 1.66m 5.45ft
3) 51mm 1.79m 5.86ft
4) 13mm 0.46m 1.49ft
Platoon Tanker:
1) 42mm 1.47m 4.82ft
2) 48.5mm 1.70m 5.57ft
3) 54mm 1.90m 6.20ft
4) 14mm 0.50m 1.61ft
Alpine Wünsche :
1) 43mm 1.51m 4.94ft
2) 49mm 1.72m 5.63ft
3) 53mm 1.86m 6.09ft
4) 16mm 0.56m 1.84ft
DML Observer:
1) 43mm 1.51m 4.94ft
2) 49mm 1.72m 5.63ft
3) 52mm 1.82m 5.97ft
4) 12mm 0.42m 1.38ft
So as you can see all the figures are pretty close in size, with perhaps the exception of the DML figure, which is slightly more slender than the rest, with the height exagerated by the angle of the head.
Which figure size is the most accurate? Well I suppose that depends on how you measure it. I leave that up to you to decide.
HTH
Rudi
captnenglish
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Posted: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 04:55 PM UTC
Rudi, now that's an imformative post, thanks
Jamesite
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Posted: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 01:15 AM UTC
I'd like to add a point that may have been overlooked.
Its all well and good comparing manufacturer to manufacturer, but often the size of figure will vary within a single companies range. This is down to different sculptors, particularly for some bigger companies who employ several to meet their demands.
I know Verlinden have already been mentioned but Dragon too have some significant size differences in their various figure sets.
I rarely build figures unmodified now and so with all the arm + head swapping etc. it can be fustrating when figures are radically different, however, I find that generally most major 1/35 figures are within acceptable tollerance.
Certainly slightly different sized figures in a dio are less of an issue compared to a single 'frankenstein' figure with variously sized limbs!
HTH
James
Its all well and good comparing manufacturer to manufacturer, but often the size of figure will vary within a single companies range. This is down to different sculptors, particularly for some bigger companies who employ several to meet their demands.
I know Verlinden have already been mentioned but Dragon too have some significant size differences in their various figure sets.
I rarely build figures unmodified now and so with all the arm + head swapping etc. it can be fustrating when figures are radically different, however, I find that generally most major 1/35 figures are within acceptable tollerance.
Certainly slightly different sized figures in a dio are less of an issue compared to a single 'frankenstein' figure with variously sized limbs!
HTH
James
long_tom
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Posted: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 06:26 AM UTC
Thanks for the interesting post, Rudi. But I noticed you have no Verlinden or Azimut figures in the lot. Presumably you don't use their products. Though my Azimut Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz figures are properly sized (unlike the overly thick Verlinden figures), other figures of theirs I have are indeed too big.
One rule I use-err on the size of small, especially for older figures. Having enough to eat was a problem for most people many years ago (with the exception of Hermann Goering .)
One rule I use-err on the size of small, especially for older figures. Having enough to eat was a problem for most people many years ago (with the exception of Hermann Goering .)
Tarok
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Posted: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 11:46 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I'd like to add a point that may have been overlooked.
Its all well and good comparing manufacturer to manufacturer, but often the size of figure will vary within a single companies range. This is down to different sculptors, particularly for some bigger companies who employ several to meet their demands.
I know Verlinden have already been mentioned but Dragon too have some significant size differences in their various figure sets.
I rarely build figures unmodified now and so with all the arm + head swapping etc. it can be fustrating when figures are radically different, however, I find that generally most major 1/35 figures are within acceptable tollerance.
Certainly slightly different sized figures in a dio are less of an issue compared to a single 'frankenstein' figure with variously sized limbs!
HTH
James
Hi James,
Not so much overlooked as much as implied, in my post above.
Generally companies set a (recommended?) standard as to how they calculate the size/scale of the figure, i.e. heel-eye, heel-top of head, heroic vs "normal", 5'10" vs 6', etc. However some companies leave this to the discression of the sculptor, thus the difference in sizes within the same stable.
I must admit not to having noticed the size differential within the DML stable, but I admittedly haven't built many of their figures over the last few years, prefering resin. I find that somewhat intriguing though, as I actually though DML were designing most of their figures using digital technology now, and not using the traditional sculpting methods.
I agree it can be frustrating when converting and Frankensteining figures, but I reckon as long as one can keep the equipment within the same size and scale, you should be okay with varying sizes of figures (provided you try to keep them to the equivalent of 5'8" - 5'10" )
Rudi
Tarok
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Posted: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 11:56 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Thanks for the interesting post, Rudi. But I noticed you have no Verlinden or Azimut figures in the lot. Presumably you don't use their products. Though my Azimut Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz figures are properly sized (unlike the overly thick Verlinden figures), other figures of theirs I have are indeed too big.
One rule I use-err on the size of small, especially for older figures. Having enough to eat was a problem for most people many years ago (with the exception of Hermann Goering .)
Hi Tom,
I do have a couple of figures from the various VLS brands (no Azimut though), but the reason I originally posted the above was to show the relative size comparisons between the HJ figure, supposedly a kid aged 16 or so, and the more adult figures. My reasons for selecting the 3 adult figures was to show the size differences between an adult of the same brand (and by the same sculptor), i.e. Platoon, then the brand I consider the cream of the crop, i.e. Alpine, and lastly the most prolific plastic manufacturer, i.e. DML. I also wanted to use figures I had built/assembled and had recently reviewed - thus had a more intimate knowledge of. As I've recently moved, most of my modelling stuff is currently going through Aussie Customs, so unfortunately I can't pull out other figures to show you the comparitive sizes...
BTW, here's a very interesting link regarding sizes on Colorado Miniatures site: Info: Scales & Sizes
Rudi
long_tom
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Posted: Saturday, October 25, 2008 - 12:32 AM UTC
What I discovered, through looking at the figure sets I have:
Using my Hornet head sets as a guide, I found that Azimut's Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz figures are in proper scale thickness-wise (thank goodness), but their other sets are not.
Ditto using Warrior's Wehrmacht General and Verlinden's Oberstleutnant General W. Model, though other Verlinden figures are too big.
(I'm not sure how they are height-wise, compared to the real-life people they are modelled on, but not knowing their heights it's not a serious problem. )
Tamiya and Dragon figures are basically right, though Tamiya figures tend to be poorly detailed, at least the older ones. I do have a penchant for adding aftermarket parts though.
Just for those with similar project ideas.
Using my Hornet head sets as a guide, I found that Azimut's Colonel Klink and Sergeant Schultz figures are in proper scale thickness-wise (thank goodness), but their other sets are not.
Ditto using Warrior's Wehrmacht General and Verlinden's Oberstleutnant General W. Model, though other Verlinden figures are too big.
(I'm not sure how they are height-wise, compared to the real-life people they are modelled on, but not knowing their heights it's not a serious problem. )
Tamiya and Dragon figures are basically right, though Tamiya figures tend to be poorly detailed, at least the older ones. I do have a penchant for adding aftermarket parts though.
Just for those with similar project ideas.