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Soviet Replacement Tanks Berlin 45
Jacques
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Posted: Saturday, December 06, 2008 - 08:01 AM UTC
But did the Khrakov plants start making tanks again BEFORE May 1945? (I have not looked it up, sorry.) Just that Kharkov is a lot closer to the West than OMSK...same with Leningrad, which I know was still churning out tanks all war.

I am not saying that the Russians did/did not use captured rail stock. I am saying that they sure as heck could have built rail line of thier own guage from Moscow to the outskirts of Berlin (just a simple example) and that the "proof" would have been continued use of that Broad guage railline well after 1945...

As an aside, does anyone know of Blueprints or scematics of a 1980-current russian flatcar for transporting tanks? I have had ZERO luck with this.
bill_c
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Posted: Saturday, December 06, 2008 - 10:43 AM UTC

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You are holding everyone else to a standard of research you yourself are unwilling to meet.


Not at all, I have provided several references from just doing a few minutes of Internet research. No big deal, but more than others are providing. Almost all of your post is just your opinion.

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When you produce that evidence you can demand evidence from everyone else.


I have cited several references to the problems of rail gauges, and I invite you to look here, which shows the Polish rail system as destroyed by the retreating Germans and not rebuilt until after the war. That unfortunately doesn't prove the Russians didn't repair the lines, but it casts into doubt they had rail heads within easy striking distance of Berlin. Also look here, where it says the destruction of the Polish railway system was at 84%. The Russians were in a hurry to get to Berlin before the Americans and British, and were eager to end the war. It's just as easy to argue that they drove their replacement tanks there.

I'm far from an expert in this, but I'm satisfied I have produced evidence that does not support the notion of the Soviets extending the railheads close to Berlin.

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Remember absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so even if no one can produce a photo or other records of Soviet tanks on trains, that doesn't mean it wasn't done.


We don't need a photo, but no one has even offered a text reference. Y'all are simply convinced it's so. I will leave you to your convictions, as this discussion is becoming more theological than actual.

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As it happens these photos are abundant.


Then please show some of tanks being shipped outside the Soviet Union. I am sure the Russians were shipping tanks and everything else within territory they controlled, and I have no doubt they performed yeoman work in repairing their own rail net. But neither you nor anyone else who believes in entrained T-34s dropped off in Oranienburg or Potsdam has been able to cite any evidence that the rail net was extended even to Warsaw.

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I wrote that rail repair is fast work, and it is. If you'd like evidence, look at US strategic bombing and their BDAs. Whenever they bombed German rail lines or even marshalling yards, the repairs were very quickly done.


There is a BIG difference between repairing a bombed-out rail line and replacing 100s of kilometers of ripped-up tracks. And no one has addressed the question of what the Russians would have moved over these tracks, since the Polish gauges are narrower than the Russian ones. Please explain that.

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3. Another way you can check this is to look up some stats on road marches. It was simply not feasible in a WW2 tank battalion to drive tanks around for hundreds of miles day after day.


And so you're claiming (since it's just a claim) that when the Russian advance on Berlin quickly moved several hundred miles from the Vistula in January to the Oder in February that the Russians sat around waiting for the rail repair battalions to fix the lines, provide non-existent locos and rolling stock, and THEN ship replacement tanks to the front?

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4. The Red Army had a grand total of a couple dozen transporter trucks during WW2 so they had to have moved their tanks long distances by rail.


Yes, and the North Vietnamese had very few trucks to go down the Ho Chi Minh Trail, but they somehow managed to get their supplies to the South.

Quoted Text

The original question was why all their tanks seem to be banged up in the fenders. Following Occam's Razor (the simplest explanation that works is probably right) I imagine the answer has nothing to do with any of this esoteric stuff. It is probably closely related to the fact that Red Army drivers were often very poorly trained, their tanks were hard to steer, they probably had pretty cheap fenders, the vision devices weren't the best, and they didn't care if they banged into things as long as they lived through that particular day.


And this is exactly the kind of wool-gathering that I prefer to avoid in discussing historical matters. Maybe they were all drunk on Vodka? Or perhaps their officers gave them extra rations if they smashed through German buildings?

I think your arguments need a shave, as they're quite hairy.
Finch
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Posted: Sunday, December 07, 2008 - 01:45 PM UTC
I'm sorry I wasted my time trying to help you. I won't make that error again.
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 03:33 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I'm sorry I wasted my time trying to help you. I won't make that error again.


Ouch! Danny, take a chill pill. What you describe as "help" is just your offering your opinions. We all have them. If you have some specific references to support your assertions, I'd be very interested. History is about looking at the facts, which are sometimes contradictory. I was very glad to see your numbers about railroad replacement battalions and the miles of track repaired. Yet as I pointed out, those numbers don't prove the Soviets were building railroads to Berlin or that their railroad repairs could keep up with the speed of their advance in late '44 and early '45.

If all you have is your opinion, then, thanks, but I don't find that as helping. If that gets you put off, then I apologize, I was just poking some fun at you.
pigsty
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 04:21 AM UTC
This is just a thought, and I've no idea where to even look for evidence, but -

Might the Russians have laid new track at their preferred gauge as they advanced? The gauges are quite close, so a permanent way built for one would fairly readily accept the other.

Or, might they have laid multi-gauge track? It's easier than multi-gauge rolling stock and I'm fairly sure the Great Western was built (or rebuilt?) along those lines to enable other comapnies' trains to run on GW track.

And finally, would they have minded that they were in effect repairing someone else's railways? Possibly not, if we bear in mind that they were planning to control most of Eastern Europe anyway.

But, as I say, no evidence, only supposition.
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 06:58 AM UTC
I have PMed a few Polish members of the Axis Forum to see if they can offer something besides opinions and speculation. I would suggest a moratorium in this thread on further speculations not backed up by some references, but your mileage may vary.
whiteeagle
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 09:44 AM UTC
Hello all

Really, transport so high amount of munitions and whole divisions presented huge problem. In 1944, when Red Army has invaded on Polish territory, also have over wide rails. Additionally, Germans performed intentional disruptions of rails and locomotives and wagons. But it didn't present serious barrier for Red Army logistics, because they have approached for reconstruction of railroad line. Only in autumn '44, become rebuilt about 1660 kilometres of railroad lines. Also it rearrange most important railroad routes on wide rails.
Additional you should know, that on eastern borders of pre-war Poland, normal rails (1435mm) were ended but wide (1520 mm) began. But, trains between Poland and Soviet Union coursed normally. On border simply, it change wheelchairs of wagons on wheelchairs with new gauge. It construct mechanisms of changes of gauge without change all wheelchairs too.
All these solutions were used without greatest problems in march on Berlin and in fast transport of whole units.

Adam
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 10:11 AM UTC
You see lots of photos of Panthers on rail trucks, but no Soviet tanks. look at the sag on most russian tanks, very worn lots of sag. That wouldn't happen after a few klicks! Yes the Soviet driver were crap, but IMHO alot of tanks were driven to the front. Fixed on the way. The Russians just wanted to kill, kill, kill Germans, and wanted to get they're tanks to the front as quick as possible. Russian Tanks were crude and simple to fix, because they drove, fought, drove, fought etc.
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 10:44 AM UTC
Thanks, Adam, I figured something besides speculation was in order for this discussion.
jimbrae
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 10:49 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Yes the Soviet driver were crap, but IMHO alot of tanks were driven to the front. Fixed on the way. The Russians just wanted to kill, kill, kill Germans, and wanted to get they're tanks to the front as quick as possible. Russian Tanks were crude and simple to fix, because they drove, fought, drove, fought etc.



Can I make a request that we stick to facts and not hearsay?
Jacques
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 11:58 AM UTC
Some of the info I have run across:

There are, essentially, two guages we are talking about: Broad (5ft) or Russian Guage and Standard (4'8"ft) or International guage. Russia is the largest user of Russian guage.

In my research I found that Russia uses ~1.7 million Km of Broad guage, Poland uses about 1,600 Km of Broad Guage, and German uses ~40 Km of Broad guage. During the cold war there was a Broad Guage rail line that ran directly from Berlin to Moscow with the Deutsche Reichsbahn, and "A special military train operated regularly between Berlin and Moscow until 1994 when the Russian military finally withdrew from Germany." (wikipedia)

The answer to "break-of-guage" (when two different rail sizes meet) is to do one of the following:

1. Switch from one train to another...takes extra time. Speculated in writing but no confirming photos/writing other than mention that the Russians had captured a lot of German rail equipment that the German's had not managed to destroy in retreat. (Contrary to some writing, the German's in retreat did not practice nearly the kind of "scorched earth" policy the Russians did to them in 1941.)

2. Re-guage the rails as you gain control. The German's are noted as having done this, simply moving one rail closer tot he other to reset them to Standard guage, as they advanced on Moscow. However, the German's were also noted as being critically short of manpower in their railway engineering units and were not employing forced labor at that time.

3. Re-set the wheel trucks or the wheel axels from one guage to another. This is more of a modern achievement.

The general evidence would be that Russia rail-supplied tanks in their advance. When Russia and China were supplying N. Korea with vehicles, namely SU-76 SPG's, they moved them on rail and there is photographic evidence of this. Not sure if that offers much in the way of evidence, but it is a start.
bill_c
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 12:07 PM UTC

Quoted Text

In my research I found that Russia uses ~1.7 million Km of Broad guage, Poland uses about 1,600 Km of Broad Guage, and German uses ~40 Km of Broad guage.


Jacques, very interesting. Are your numbers modern ones?
MRMOOSE535
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 03:10 PM UTC
I had just started building models when a neighbor saw them during a visit. The next evening he was back in my living room with photo albums and photo books from his time in the army.
He was a combat engineer and had been at Remagen before the bridge fell. My father was and is a railroad modeller and they talked about different gauges. Seems we just laid a third rail, so you could run both gauges on one line. I remember him saying that we learned this trick from the Germans, but becuse of the coupler system we used we could not mix the two gauges in one train like the germans could. Our couplers would not work if off center but the European couplers used large links of chain and could work even if they did not line up by just a few inches or centimeters. Thought I would toss some more mist into the fog of war
Jacques
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 03:55 PM UTC
The number I found were based on 2008 notes. It was noted that the Germans in particular had ripped up and refurbished a large amount of Broad Guage railline in East Germany, as well as a fair amount of electrified narrow gauge railline, all of the former Deutsche Reichsbahn. Also, it was noted that a lot of the non-mainline broad guage railway in Poland was of poor quality.

There was no mention of dates of construction.

Also noted was that Russian track laying was very crude, especially in the 1941-42 range...it was noted by German engineers that the russians would lay poor quality steel rails directly over roughly cleaned tree trunks, for rail ties, that were too far spaced out thus dispersing their ability to carry heavier equipment. This pissed the German Engineers off to no end, by the notes I found. Sorry, I did not mark the link.

I looked up variations of Broad Gauge, east german railway, Deutsche Reichsbahn, Russian railroad wwii, and so on. Most links pointed to one to two sentences about rail construction, some note by a German engineer in one sentence, etc.

Looks like noone has delved deep enough into Russian WWII rail operations documentation...it is probably lying right under that KV-II full interior schematic...
VolkerS
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Posted: Monday, December 08, 2008 - 08:32 PM UTC
Hi folks,

this discussion developed in a somehow ridiculos way. All those stuff about dumb russian drivers, bad engineering reminds me a little on the old J.Wayne movie, showing the soviet union as a country of log houses and farmers flying jet a/c

And all those who never saw russian/soviet tanks on flatcars (and even german ones in this case!), but Panthers, look at 'Soviet tanks in combat 1941-1945' (Concord #7011) pg. 54 (3 pics!) where you can see T-34 beeing disloaded (caption says 1944 in Romania). Railroad transport of tanks was not uncommon or even unknown to the soviets, as many pictures and movies of KV and T-34 do show (at least in the homeland).

Yes. it's right, the way to Berlin wasn't a nice boulevard, but a way of fierce fighting and battles, so many means will have been used to provide the troops with replacement stuff. Railroad transport with all its difficulties will have been one of them. Tanks having been pulled by labour slaves all the way from Ural to Berlin won't

Regards

Volker
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 03:07 AM UTC
Hi, Volker, thanks for joining the discussion. At the risk of beating a dead horse and overstating what has already been said, the questions are not whether the Soviets moved tanks by rail (of course they did, I have seen newsreels of tanks brought in from the Manchurian border in Winter 1941), but how fast (and far) the Russians were able to rebuild and possibly re-gauge the rail net from their borders to Berlin.

1.) Did the Soviets transport tanks via rail? Of course!

2.) Did those rail nets extend to the edge of their former borders? Probably. By Winter '44, the Soviets had recaptured all their land and we at the Vistula. Given the large numbers of railroad repair troops and the Soviet Union's huge population, it's certainly plausible, though no one has presented any actual list of rail lines repaired, etc.

3.) Did the Russians extend their rail line(s) beyond the Vistula in time for them to reach into eastern Germany (what today is Poland)?

#3 is the crucial question here, and I don't think any substantial evidence of this has been presented so far.

Apparently they built wide-gauge lines across Poland and Germany, but when? During the 44/45 campaign or post-war?

Apparently the Germans did not destroy all the rolling stock and locos they left behind; if not, then presumably the Russians could have repaired the Polish lines and then used them to deliver replacement men and materiel. But again, no hard evidence of this.

Finally, after the final offensive was launched over the Oder, how fast would the rail workers have been able to get the lines close to Berlin? Or did their replacement tanks have to drive the final leg of this journey?

Let us not oversimplify the arguments of either side. This is really quite specific, and it may be that exact information isn't currently available.

I see a history PhD in the offing for someone!
VolkerS
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 06:18 AM UTC
Hi Bill,

thank you for bringing it to the roots

According to current german sources, a report from 31.8.45, made by the russians counted a little more than 4900 locomotives (many in need for beeing repaired) and nearly 33000 coaches/cars (not all operational) in the soviet occupied zone of germany.
Some regional historicans reported german sappers destroying railwaylines in order to prevent use by the russians (example: http://www.karaus.de/bahnhof.htm), so the germans seemed to have feared the russians using them.

Many sources claim that a lot of material has been disassembled and transfered to the SU after the war. (see her for at least the small scale railway unions: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostdeutsche_Eisenbahn-Gesellschaft_in_K%C3%B6nigsberg)

And finaly this: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederschlesisch-M%C3%A4rkische_Eisenbahn

Qoute: "In Frankfurt (Oder) zweigt die Bahnstrecke Frankfurt (Oder)–Posen ab, die Teil einer West-Ost-Verbindung über Warschau nach Moskau ist. Zur Versorgung sowjetischer Truppen wurde daher ein Gleis der Strecke beim Vorrücken der Roten Armee auf 1524 mm Breitspur umgebaut, so dass schon am 25. April 1945 der erste sowjetische Militärzug bis an die Berliner Stadtgrenze fahren konnte." Yes it states that 25.4.45 the first soviet military train was able to reach the Berlin border, because the gauge was widend immidiatly!

HTH?

Volker
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 12:17 PM UTC
Tausend Dank, Volker!

It seems then, that if the first train to Berlin was not operational until the end of April that at least some of the tanks used in the Battle of Berlin had to drive part of the way there. But this is very useful.

The one problem I see with the inventory of locos and rolling stock is that it is a list from AFTER the end of the war. It's likely the Soviets seized assets within Germany, and it's generally agreed they stripped much of their zone in Germany of machinery, etc. as "reparations" for the damage done to their country. Whether that means they were running German trains in time for the final assault on Berlin is another matter.

A Polish member of this forum wrote me a PM about his mother's recollections of Soviet troops arriving in her village outside Danzig. They were as dirty and rough-looking a collection of hardened vets as she'd ever seen. I suspect they didn't get to Berlin by riding first class, that's for sure!
Finch
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 03:24 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

I'm sorry I wasted my time trying to help you. I won't make that error again.


Ouch! Danny, take a chill pill. What you describe as "help" is just your offering your opinions. We all have them. If you have some specific references to support your assertions, I'd be very interested.



I provided some substantial statistics from David Glantz, probably the most respected western researcher on the Red Army of WW2. Not just my (informed) opinion. You're welcome.
VolkerS
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Posted: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 - 09:47 PM UTC
Hi Bill,

you're welcome!

Indeed, assuming that a lot of troops simply entered Berlin on their own tracks, feet and tires and that they did that for more than only the last 20 km can't be denied.
But keep an eye on the timetable: It was April 21, when soviet troops entered Berlin at Marzahn and April 25 when the circle was closed at Ketzin. Therefore the first train arriving at 25.4. on the city border and on wide gauge means that they managed to establish railway support very fast and only at a short distance behind the fighting troops.

A word on eyewitness:
Talking with people who witnessed places/events is somehow tricky. Nearby my home there has been a Luftwaffe command post for home defense. Asking 2 old men will give you 3 answers, partly very contrary. A lot of myths and bias in there. So, drawing conclusions from that must be taken with high caution. At the bottom of this site(http://www.dhm.de/lemo/forum/kollektives_gedaechtnis/033/index.html) you'll find a german women stating that the she was surprised how clean and well dressed (in opposite to what german propaganda told) the first soviet soldier was, that she saw. (I Bet there will be enough that would have disagreed with her)
But for sure, a first class trip to Berlin would have been on the back of a T-34 or IS-2 by that time, not leaving a train at "Berlin-Alexanderplatz"

Best wishes

Volker
Jacques
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 04:08 AM UTC
Also, you woudl not want to have a railhead too close to the fighting, in case there was a enemy penetration into the lines. I would have imagined a railhead actaully 20km from Berlin, but not essentially up to it. Soft resupply targets, especially ones that are locked down on a train or stored in boxes, are the wet dream of the combat soldier. That and pissing off the enemy bean counters to no end...
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 12:00 PM UTC
Bill,

I've been a quiet spectator for this thread but came across this photo at Ullstein Bild and thought you might find it interesting: http://www.ullsteinbild.de/photodatenbank/cache/images/00/66/62/84/preview/00666284.jpg

The caption that goes with it says "GERMAN REFUGEES, 1945. German women from Poland, fleeing the advancing Soviet army, rest at a freight train in Germany. German photograph, mid-April 1945, near the end of World War II in Europe." This would indicate to me that rail lines were still operational right up to the end due to the refugee situation and the general collapse precluding an orderly demolition in all cases?
bill_c
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 12:52 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The caption that goes with it says "GERMAN REFUGEES, 1945. German women from Poland, fleeing the advancing Soviet army, rest at a freight train in Germany. German photograph, mid-April 1945, near the end of World War II in Europe." This would indicate to me that rail lines were still operational right up to the end due to the refugee situation and the general collapse precluding an orderly demolition in all cases?


I'm sure the Germans were using the rails to transport in both directions (there was an SS unit that was hammered detraining in Poland). I think the issue comes down to how much destruction they were able to accomplish as they fled West. Although skeptical at first, I must admit that the evidence is pointing out that I was wrong and that the Soviets were re-supplying their Berlin-bound armies via rail, at least quite close to the front if not all the way there.
Removed by original poster on 12/13/08 - 22:36:14 (GMT).
Finch
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Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 05:56 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Watching the history channel it said that they drove.



The history channel routinely gets things very wrong. Again, it is not practical to drive tracked vehicles for hundreds of miles day after day. You will destroy your own units without the enemy havingto fire a shot this way.

Wheels vehicles obviously can be driven these distances, and even so they were often transported by rail.