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155mm and M4 tractor dio
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 07:36 AM UTC
Planning to do a gun and tractor diorama. Have the Long Tom complete and about 95 % of the M4 tractor. Got a few figures now I need to get some detailing goodies. Obviously I need rounds as the kit only included one. What about powder bags? Would they have been stored in the two side compartments in that rear box where the rounds were kept? anybody make these or is this a roll your own type deal. If it is a roll your own, how long would they be in modeling terms half inch? How close would the tractor have been to the gun?
redleg12
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 872 posts
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Posted: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 09:01 AM UTC
Steve
AFV Club makes a set of 8 inch and 155mm howitzer rounds. Kit number35017.
The 155 rounds are fro the howiter not the gun but at 1/35 scale you will be fine. The set also comes with powder canisters which would have the powder packed in them. That will help you gage the bag size. Milliputty or clay would be good for making the bags.
The set has palletized rounds to put on the M4 and loose rounds for whatever else you are setting up
Also include some 50 cal cans. These size ammo cans are used for the fuzes. That should get you all you need.
Rounds Complete!!
AFV Club makes a set of 8 inch and 155mm howitzer rounds. Kit number35017.
The 155 rounds are fro the howiter not the gun but at 1/35 scale you will be fine. The set also comes with powder canisters which would have the powder packed in them. That will help you gage the bag size. Milliputty or clay would be good for making the bags.
The set has palletized rounds to put on the M4 and loose rounds for whatever else you are setting up
Also include some 50 cal cans. These size ammo cans are used for the fuzes. That should get you all you need.
Rounds Complete!!
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 01:33 AM UTC
Thanks Mike
Would the excess powder be stored in those areas next to where the rounds were pallatized on the back of the M4? Also As I don't want to make a H-U-G-E dio, how close can I put the M$ and still be considerate of reasonable accuracy for time/date accuracy?
Would the excess powder be stored in those areas next to where the rounds were pallatized on the back of the M4? Also As I don't want to make a H-U-G-E dio, how close can I put the M$ and still be considerate of reasonable accuracy for time/date accuracy?
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:17 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Steve
AFV Club makes a set of 8 inch and 155mm howitzer rounds. Kit number35017.
The 155 rounds are fro the howiter not the gun but at 1/35 scale you will be fine. The set also comes with powder canisters which would have the powder packed in them. That will help you gage the bag size. Milliputty or clay would be good for making the bags.
The set has palletized rounds to put on the M4 and loose rounds for whatever else you are setting up
Also include some 50 cal cans. These size ammo cans are used for the fuzes. That should get you all you need.
Rounds Complete!!
Just a note about that 155 round kit. The markings are not correct for late WWII or even Vietnam or Korea (we often shot rounds made in late WWII in early 1968). But perhaps somebody does make a correct decale sheet for them. The 8" rounds also are not right either. But like the 155 rounds are actually pre 1968 ones (they don't have the nylon wiper ring on them. Also the nose plugs look to be miss shapen as well (easilly corrected). Verlinden also did them, but have not seen them up close.
gary
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:32 AM UTC
As this is a WW2 era dio, I am not worrieed too much about markings. At 35th scale someone with a magnifying glass might notice that , but probably time period which would be roughly fall of 1944 I don't think I'm really going to concern myself with such things. Thanks for the tip though.
redleg12
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 872 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 12:14 AM UTC
Steve
The powder is kept in its container until it is goin to be used. The container would be opened and the required powder increments carried to the gun. if all the increments which are packed are not used, the un-used incrementes are put into a pit near the weapon.
The powder and ammo would be stored on the M4. They might be working off the back of the M4 with 1 or 2 rounds down, off the truck ready to go and the rest on the M4.
As far as accurate distance...because to the transport dolly used by the M59 & M115, the weapon would be unhooked and the M4 would pull up at least 5 - 10 feet. The dolly would be un hooked and pushed to the side (should be in the dio) and then you could work from the M4.
So....to look semi correct the back M4 would have to be about 3 to 4 inches away from the trails.
Hope that helps
Rounds Complete!!
The powder is kept in its container until it is goin to be used. The container would be opened and the required powder increments carried to the gun. if all the increments which are packed are not used, the un-used incrementes are put into a pit near the weapon.
The powder and ammo would be stored on the M4. They might be working off the back of the M4 with 1 or 2 rounds down, off the truck ready to go and the rest on the M4.
As far as accurate distance...because to the transport dolly used by the M59 & M115, the weapon would be unhooked and the M4 would pull up at least 5 - 10 feet. The dolly would be un hooked and pushed to the side (should be in the dio) and then you could work from the M4.
So....to look semi correct the back M4 would have to be about 3 to 4 inches away from the trails.
Hope that helps
Rounds Complete!!
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 01:25 AM UTC
Thanks Mike. That pretty much gives me everything else I could use. I take it the dolly is the 2 man device used to hand carrry the rounds. I ordered some set of resin figures that had that included. So it looks like I'll I need to get is the AFV round set and from there I'll be good to go. Thing is I have a massive project set for January. The 350 scale Kongo with full PE and a wooden deck. If you really want to see something, go to the Modelshipwrights branch and check out the build log that Dade is doing on this kit. It's a whole other world from Armor building.
Thanks again
Steve
Thanks again
Steve
HeavyArty
Joined: May 16, 2002
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 02:00 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I take it the dolly is the 2 man device used to hand carrry the rounds.
The dolly is the two-wheeled cart that the trails of the gun attach to, then it is attached the M4 HST for towing the gun. It should be detached, but close by.
trahe
Joined: April 03, 2006
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 02:29 AM UTC
Steve,
The Verlinden set comes with powder bags, and (if I recall correctly) extra fuzes.
Don't forget to dig the powder pit to the rear of the gun as Mike pointed out.
Someone else may have to chime in as to whether or not the Long Tom required a recoil pit. I know the M114 155 Howitzer required one...
Please keep us posted on your progress.
Rah VA Mil!
The Verlinden set comes with powder bags, and (if I recall correctly) extra fuzes.
Don't forget to dig the powder pit to the rear of the gun as Mike pointed out.
Someone else may have to chime in as to whether or not the Long Tom required a recoil pit. I know the M114 155 Howitzer required one...
Please keep us posted on your progress.
Rah VA Mil!
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 07:16 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Steve,
The Verlinden set comes with powder bags, and (if I recall correctly) extra fuzes.
Don't forget to dig the powder pit to the rear of the gun as Mike pointed out.
Someone else may have to chime in as to whether or not the Long Tom required a recoil pit. I know the M114 155 Howitzer required one...
Please keep us posted on your progress.
Rah VA Mil!
I never saw anybody ever dig a pit for left over powder charges anywhere, but that seems logical to me. We always just tossed it in a pile about fifteen feet to the side of the left trail. The ammo section will promptly burn it in the morning after daylight of course. But even then don't expect alot of unused powder bags piled up. The charge of choice was always a charge seven (even if your only shooting 4,000 yards, or a five green bag (there will be a white bag as well as the green bag). Powder charges are never left laying on the ground! Rounds yes. WP and illumination are always standing strait upright (the cases are thinner and a little more fragile). Also remember the shape of an illumination round is a little different than an HE.
As for digging a high angle pit for a 155 anything; don't bother. The length of recoil on these pigs means a pretty deep pit, and will have to be much deeper just to load it. Just not a good combo when trying to use a rammer staff. The new stuff would do better though. With 60" of recoil and a 98lb. round loose in the chamber waiting for the rammer staff you have an accident looking for a place to happen. Most high angle fire is done by 105's for that reason alone.
Loading trays; gotta use one with an M59 or M115. Breech is pretty high to load that 98lb. round by hand unless your seven feet tall. M1, M101, M114 are a different story. Only time I ever saw a tray used was stateside. The feeling was that it was just something to get in the way after the round was laid in the chamber. Add this plus the fact that gun crews often are small in numbers. What goes on between the trails is critcal and dangerous. no one is there except for the gunner, AG, and loader. All powder is left of the trail and rounds for the mission are close to the loader between the trails. Rest of the crew are out of the area till the round is fired.
gary
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 11:17 AM UTC
thanks everyone for very usefull info. I'll have to check out the verlinden and the AFV set and see which one will best serve my purpose. I'll probably get to work on the landscape in April or May like I said, I've got that moster ship project that I have been itching to get at, but had to try to get at least as many kits built as I bought this year. Looks like I might actually complete 1 more that I bought. Of course what I bought is staggeringly expensive as most were 350 scale capital ships. Take a look at the price tag on The Akagi and the 4 PE sets and the 4 sets of additional aircraft needed to depict the Pearl Harbor attack. Luckily pre-order and discount house will knock $100 or so off that fee.
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 04:06 PM UTC
The Academy M12 kit comes with correct projos and powder containers for WWII.
To add to what Gary said, WP projectiles are stored upright because the phosphorous settles. If the projo is laying on its site the round will not fly true as the phosphorous has all settled to one side.
Don't know how they did it in WWII, but excess powder now goes in a metal can, and is not dumped until the charge is verified.
One thing not mentioned that you will need in your dio (two actually) are the swab and bucket. The bucket is usually dug in to keep it from tipping.
To add to what Gary said, WP projectiles are stored upright because the phosphorous settles. If the projo is laying on its site the round will not fly true as the phosphorous has all settled to one side.
Don't know how they did it in WWII, but excess powder now goes in a metal can, and is not dumped until the charge is verified.
One thing not mentioned that you will need in your dio (two actually) are the swab and bucket. The bucket is usually dug in to keep it from tipping.
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
Armorama: 1,357 posts
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Posted: Friday, December 12, 2008 - 07:40 PM UTC
Quoted Text
The Academy M12 kit comes with correct projos and powder containers for WWII.
To add to what Gary said, WP projectiles are stored upright because the phosphorous settles. If the projo is laying on its site the round will not fly true as the phosphorous has all settled to one side.
Don't know how they did it in WWII, but excess powder now goes in a metal can, and is not dumped until the charge is verified.
One thing not mentioned that you will need in your dio (two actually) are the swab and bucket. The bucket is usually dug in to keep it from tipping.
In my day we'd do a one round sweep in about sixty seconds, but as I said almost always a charge seven white bag. I did shoot a charge three once in greenbag. We always put the bucket just to the right of the right trail. The guy with the swap would be over there anyway to clear the breech during recoil. As the AG opened the breech (usually as it was starting to return to battery) he would be right there with the swab. Loader picks the round up and lays in in the chamber while reaching with his right hand for the bell on the rammer staff. If you let the guy put in in the you'll end up with busted knuckles half the time. As he rams the round the loader reaches over the left trail for the powder charge (we always had the section chief hand it over to confirm the charge). By now the AG has his eyes on the loader to watch him load the powder. The loader steps back against the left trail and covers his ears with his hands. The gunner raises his right hand, and the AG once again checks the loader and fires the round. He will not fire the round till he sees the ears covered on the loader as that's a sign to him. Just like Chinese Fire Drill!
I might add that the loader is also the guy who does the timed fuses and normally selects the rounds and powder charges. If it's a zone sweep the other guys will carry them to the gun while he gets in position. The three guys between the trails really have no idea where and what the others are doing as nobody else is up there in the firing area. On long days they will often swap jobs around (only those three guys). But the section chief always stays to the left side of the left trail (if you have a chief). After all somebody's gotta hand the powder over the trail.
gary
redleg12
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 872 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 02:17 AM UTC
Acouple of things to note....
The M59 155mm gun is different from a howitzer. Becauseit was a gun...you would never fire high angle and therefore never dig a pit.
Powder pit is more a term than an actual pit. I have seen units pile powder, usa a cut off (half height) 55 gallon drum, crates, but they always have a powder "area" to the rear of the weapon.
The Verlinden set does come with fuzes. Either set is nice. The AFV has more ammo, the Verlinden set has fuzes. I know the AFV set has ammo decals (which may not be correct for WWII) and I'm am not sure on the Verlinden.
Hopefully that should get you going. My brothers Gino and Gary have cleared up some other questions. If you have any more, just pull the lanyard.
Good Luck
Rounds Complete!!
The M59 155mm gun is different from a howitzer. Becauseit was a gun...you would never fire high angle and therefore never dig a pit.
Powder pit is more a term than an actual pit. I have seen units pile powder, usa a cut off (half height) 55 gallon drum, crates, but they always have a powder "area" to the rear of the weapon.
The Verlinden set does come with fuzes. Either set is nice. The AFV has more ammo, the Verlinden set has fuzes. I know the AFV set has ammo decals (which may not be correct for WWII) and I'm am not sure on the Verlinden.
Hopefully that should get you going. My brothers Gino and Gary have cleared up some other questions. If you have any more, just pull the lanyard.
Good Luck
Rounds Complete!!
18Bravo
Joined: January 20, 2005
KitMaker: 7,219 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 04:07 AM UTC
Quoted Text
The Verlinden set does come with fuzes. Either set is nice. The AFV has more ammo, the Verlinden set has fuzes. I know the AFV set has ammo decals (which may not be correct for WWII) and I'm am not sure on the Verlinden.
Neither set's rounds will work, nor will the powder cannisters. Depending on which time period you're doing, the markings will may in all likelihood will not work either. Prior to 1943 HE projectiles were yellow with black markings. In 1943 HE changed to its current green with yellow markings, but the weight data (marked with yellow squares) and other markings are not going to be the same. Again, these weren't the same rounds. Visually, they'll probably work. Especially if you rotate the projos so that the markings are visible, but somewhat obscured.
trickymissfit
Joined: October 03, 2007
KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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KitMaker: 1,388 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 06:47 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Acouple of things to note....
The M59 155mm gun is different from a howitzer. Becauseit was a gun...you would never fire high angle and therefore never dig a pit.
Powder pit is more a term than an actual pit. I have seen units pile powder, usa a cut off (half height) 55 gallon drum, crates, but they always have a powder "area" to the rear of the weapon.
The Verlinden set does come with fuzes. Either set is nice. The AFV has more ammo, the Verlinden set has fuzes. I know the AFV set has ammo decals (which may not be correct for WWII) and I'm am not sure on the Verlinden.
Hopefully that should get you going. My brothers Gino and Gary have cleared up some other questions. If you have any more, just pull the lanyard.
Good Luck
Rounds Complete!!
somewhere in a stash f photos I have a close up of a 155 round being loaded into the chamber. We should all be able to make out the markings easilly.
Back to high angle fire a second; On any 155mm gun it's a bear. That's why you most often see it done with 105's. Maybe an M109 would be easier with the short recoil and hydraulicly assisted barrel elevation. I'll try to find that pic this weekend for all of you.
gary
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
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Posted: Saturday, December 13, 2008 - 03:13 PM UTC
All right too much info here. I plan to have the gun around 45 degrees. I have two guys lifting a round to the breech and 2 more holding a ramming staff waiting for rund to reach the breech.. So I figure I"ll have a powder bag near the rear trail and maybe another round laying on its side near that. HE was painted what back then OD right. No WP no pitsmost rounds will still be in tractor so I'm not overly concerned about markings. SO how many guys do I need to finsih up crew and what do they need to be doing. The set came with 4 but I can supplement more . I have a radioman talking on a set which could be to the FDC or whtever they called it back then.
redleg12
Joined: March 11, 2007
KitMaker: 872 posts
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Posted: Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 01:10 AM UTC
Steve - Sorry....we old redlegs can get into deep detail!!!
The towed M59 and M115 would carry full crews of 11. For the purpose of a dio and depending how many figures you want to do....Gunner and AG on the right and left side of the gun. Two guys maybe carrying a round. RTO off to the side. A few near the M4 preparing rounds. Lastly the section chief somewhere near the gun.
Sorry to give detail...its our nature...We could have gone on with the direction the screw head is pointing on the PD fuze for super quick action
Hope I have been of help!
Rounds Complete!!
The towed M59 and M115 would carry full crews of 11. For the purpose of a dio and depending how many figures you want to do....Gunner and AG on the right and left side of the gun. Two guys maybe carrying a round. RTO off to the side. A few near the M4 preparing rounds. Lastly the section chief somewhere near the gun.
Sorry to give detail...its our nature...We could have gone on with the direction the screw head is pointing on the PD fuze for super quick action
Hope I have been of help!
Rounds Complete!!
blaster76
Joined: September 15, 2002
KitMaker: 8,985 posts
Armorama: 3,034 posts
Posted: Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 01:33 AM UTC
wow 11 people. Looks like I'll have to get that other set of 4 with the guys carrying the powder bag and such. I know about too much information. I tend to ramble to my coworkers about things when asked....like SEC football (I live in Big 12 country) and the latest 350 scale ship I purchased. Me I'm an old tank guy and I filled in a bit as a FIST chief for 6 months so I have some knowledge of arty, just on M109a1's though.
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