not really wanting to resurrect this BUT I am going to build the Tamiya 1:35 PzII F/G (as an F variant of 5th light division who were in North Africa in 1941). This means 2-tone RAL8000 and RAL7008. Now the Tamiya paint guide calls for the 7008 to be "splodges" - shown by using cotton wool - dotted around. Does anyone know if that is the case - or would it more likely be areas of 7008 (similar to "normal" camouflage)
cheers
Armor/AFV
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robw_uk
Joined: June 22, 2010
KitMaker: 1,224 posts
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Posted: Friday, June 22, 2012 - 01:09 AM UTC
Totalize
Joined: February 04, 2009
KitMaker: 743 posts
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Posted: Monday, May 31, 2010 - 03:41 PM UTC
Hi Guys, I recently finished doing a DAK Tiger. I did Tiger 112 of the s.Pz Abt. 501. Serial Number #250012. This Tiger was part of the first batch of Tigers sent to Tunisia in late 1942. I painted it using Testors Model Master RAL 7008.
After seeing some of the Time life colour pictures on the net. Some say they were painted in RAL 8000 which could be the case but the colours are similar. RAL 7008 looks a little more greener to me than 8000.
The Panzer IIIN's may very well have been painted in a two tone scheme (like the Bovington Tiger which I believe was a S.Pz Abt. 504 Tiger)) but in my book Panzers of Kasserine I have pictures of two Panzer IIIN's of s. Pz. Abt.501(Tank No.s 134 and 124) that came ashore with the rest of the First company's Tigers in November 1942 and they are painted in a monotone colour. Again probably in either RAL 8000 or 7008.
Perhaps the two tone Panzer IIIN's are post January 1943 deliveries to North Africa that came ashore as part the
s.Pz-Abt. 504?
Here's a few pictures of Tiger 112 on the road to Pont du Fahs.
And the Real Tiger 112
If you wish to see more pics head on over to model armour
http://www.modelarmour.com/index.php
David.
After seeing some of the Time life colour pictures on the net. Some say they were painted in RAL 8000 which could be the case but the colours are similar. RAL 7008 looks a little more greener to me than 8000.
The Panzer IIIN's may very well have been painted in a two tone scheme (like the Bovington Tiger which I believe was a S.Pz Abt. 504 Tiger)) but in my book Panzers of Kasserine I have pictures of two Panzer IIIN's of s. Pz. Abt.501(Tank No.s 134 and 124) that came ashore with the rest of the First company's Tigers in November 1942 and they are painted in a monotone colour. Again probably in either RAL 8000 or 7008.
Perhaps the two tone Panzer IIIN's are post January 1943 deliveries to North Africa that came ashore as part the
s.Pz-Abt. 504?
Here's a few pictures of Tiger 112 on the road to Pont du Fahs.
And the Real Tiger 112
If you wish to see more pics head on over to model armour
http://www.modelarmour.com/index.php
David.
tiger-buff
Joined: June 01, 2010
KitMaker: 2 posts
Armorama: 1 posts
Posted: Monday, May 31, 2010 - 02:24 PM UTC
The issue is not as cut and dried as one would think, there is in fact absolute proof that not only was the RAL8000/RAL7008 duel color in use by the Afrika Korps it was still being used upto April 1943 the evidence is as follows. In 1999 ABRO the British Army's AFV workshops at Bovington
were entrusted by the tank museum at the base to strip restore and rebuild that most rare and valuable of beasts a Pz Kpfw VI ausf E Tiger I to full working order. This Tiger is refered to as 131(its turret No)and was an early production model(so early that its 88cm gun mantlet was intended for the Porshe(rejected)variant)it was completed in Jan 43 and then sent to Tunisia to serve with 504 Schwere Panzer Abteilung, on 20th/21st 131 took part in an action just outside Medjaz el Bab some 40 miles from Tunis and was subsequintly disabled and captured by the British. Dureing the dismantlement of 131 samples of pain were taken from many areas of the hull turret roadwheels ect some of which were in obscure and hard to reach places and the presence of RAL 8000/7008 paint was confermed. 131 has now been restored and is the only working Tiger I, The paint scheme is the RAL 8000/7008 color found on it and the camoflage patten as close as possable to the original as possable.
were entrusted by the tank museum at the base to strip restore and rebuild that most rare and valuable of beasts a Pz Kpfw VI ausf E Tiger I to full working order. This Tiger is refered to as 131(its turret No)and was an early production model(so early that its 88cm gun mantlet was intended for the Porshe(rejected)variant)it was completed in Jan 43 and then sent to Tunisia to serve with 504 Schwere Panzer Abteilung, on 20th/21st 131 took part in an action just outside Medjaz el Bab some 40 miles from Tunis and was subsequintly disabled and captured by the British. Dureing the dismantlement of 131 samples of pain were taken from many areas of the hull turret roadwheels ect some of which were in obscure and hard to reach places and the presence of RAL 8000/7008 paint was confermed. 131 has now been restored and is the only working Tiger I, The paint scheme is the RAL 8000/7008 color found on it and the camoflage patten as close as possable to the original as possable.
johnnyboy
Joined: December 18, 2003
KitMaker: 173 posts
Armorama: 80 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 11:30 AM UTC
thanks herbert i really appreciate it johnny 
H_Ackermans
Joined: July 11, 2006
KitMaker: 2,229 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 10:58 AM UTC
Painting orders aren't even given specific for any vehicle. When painting orders were issued, this meant ALL vehicles, softskins up to the heaviest of tanks, they all had to be finished in the painting order given.
But, the differentiation comes due to the different finishing plants. Panthers can be identified by their finish as to which plant (MNH, MAN of DB) did final assembly.
It's not like a painting instruction for the Tiger-B or Panther-A or Pz III n was given, like we have them in our model instructions.
It was simply this:
- Base coat dunkelgrun and over this, rotbraun and dunkelgelb.
No specifics for how or where. That a company tended to use their own loose templates, that's more due to efficiency than orders.
But, the differentiation comes due to the different finishing plants. Panthers can be identified by their finish as to which plant (MNH, MAN of DB) did final assembly.
It's not like a painting instruction for the Tiger-B or Panther-A or Pz III n was given, like we have them in our model instructions.
It was simply this:
- Base coat dunkelgrun and over this, rotbraun and dunkelgelb.
No specifics for how or where. That a company tended to use their own loose templates, that's more due to efficiency than orders.
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
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Posted: Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 07:57 AM UTC
John,
Virtually any book on the III will cover the N as one of the variants...but you don't find too many pics of them around in circulation. For example Spielbergers' Pz III and Variants has a couple of photos, so does Osprey's New Vanguard #27 on the Pz III, and there's a few in Achtung Panzer #2 on the Pz III. So far as I know there isn't a dedicated book on the III N available.
Virtually any book on the III will cover the N as one of the variants...but you don't find too many pics of them around in circulation. For example Spielbergers' Pz III and Variants has a couple of photos, so does Osprey's New Vanguard #27 on the Pz III, and there's a few in Achtung Panzer #2 on the Pz III. So far as I know there isn't a dedicated book on the III N available.
johnnyboy
Joined: December 18, 2003
KitMaker: 173 posts
Armorama: 80 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 05:23 AM UTC
thanks bill i really appreciate your quick response.do you know of any one book that has the panzer n in it thanks again
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 05:19 AM UTC
John,
Personally, I would go with the 8020/7027 scheme for the simple reason that color photos do exist of III Ns being offloaded wearing that scheme.
Personally, I would go with the 8020/7027 scheme for the simple reason that color photos do exist of III Ns being offloaded wearing that scheme.
johnnyboy
Joined: December 18, 2003
KitMaker: 173 posts
Armorama: 80 posts
Posted: Thursday, March 19, 2009 - 05:12 AM UTC
Ok so the question remains what colors does one use to paint a panzer 3 n. and is there any reference out there that talks about this in a panzer tracts or anything?also i was going to use life color to paint my panzer 3 n is this correct. thanks for any help johnny
swathdiver
Joined: October 23, 2007
KitMaker: 10 posts
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Posted: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 - 04:22 AM UTC
I agree and followed the printed orders for using 8020/7027. Then we came across those color photos, Some pictures of 142 the color looks like 7008(front), some 8020/7027(sides) and others (rear) looks like 8000. So do the knocked out Gs, they look like they were painted with 8000 too. So even though the order was in effect, is it possible that they were painted in 8000 as they still had plenty of it? That's what they repainted Tiger 131 in England in. What do you think of the photos on Google?
I was going to build a Stug D and F8 too! Have you found more photos of them? The Ds would be in 8000, the F8s should be in 8020.
I was going to build a Stug D and F8 too! Have you found more photos of them? The Ds would be in 8000, the F8s should be in 8020.
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 12:05 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I've done some of my 501 tanks with Xtracrylix 8020/7027 and am planning to do the next pair using 8000/7008.
According to this site, DAK tanks should be painted with RAL 8000 (Gelbraun) alternating 7008 (Graugrün) from 3/41-3/42 followed by 8020 (Braun)/7027 (Grau) thereafter, though allowing for paint supplies on-hand to be used up.
That said, wouldn't the Tigers of sPA 501 have had the later color pattern (8020/7027)?
And how do you find the Testors colors?
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 11:53 AM UTC
You're right, I was careless in my identification. I have been focused on Stugs in the DAK, and was wondering if that was the F version.
swathdiver
Joined: October 23, 2007
KitMaker: 10 posts
Armorama: 9 posts
Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 09:16 AM UTC
That's not a German Stug Bill, it was one of those Italian semovente 75/18s or something like that. Colors could be German or Italian.
I know they say there were green Tigers, but other then Gary Chester saying he saw some, we have no photographic evidence. 7008 and 7027 have a greenish hue to them in sunlight.
As for tracks, it would have worn off in short order! the dirt in Northern Tunisia was like Georgia clay, the stuff we see at baseball fields. You can see the dirt thoroughly coating the Tiger tracks all over the battlefield in those photos.
I know they say there were green Tigers, but other then Gary Chester saying he saw some, we have no photographic evidence. 7008 and 7027 have a greenish hue to them in sunlight.
As for tracks, it would have worn off in short order! the dirt in Northern Tunisia was like Georgia clay, the stuff we see at baseball fields. You can see the dirt thoroughly coating the Tiger tracks all over the battlefield in those photos.
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
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Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 07:03 AM UTC
Quoted Text
I'm fairly new to painting and weathering but I would imaging that you could make the dunkelgelb look faded and weathered and then resemble RAL8000.
A coating of Future should let me put on some 7027 splotches. The Stug III photo shows the camo to good effect:
http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=el+guettar+source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3Del%2Bguettar%2Bsource:life%26start%3D18%26ndsp%3D18%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN&imgurl=5f2faab976d7bbfb
Is that an F or a G?
Quoted Text
You'll see photos of a soldier putting blocks of TNT under a Tiger and several photos of the same tank upside down and blown to bits, that's the famous 142 Tiger. Clearly it wasn't green and had a camoflage pattern on the side even though the color looks off(7008?) with the soldier getting ready to blow it up. Now my dilema has been is it 8020 or 8000? 7027 or 7008 or a combination?
According to Tigers in Combat I, some 501 tanks were painted with captured US Army olive to better accomodate the vegetation in Tunisia (as opposed to the arid conditions of Egypt and Libya). Could that be what you're seeing?
Quoted Text
Also note that all the tracks were painted the base color, not just the spares.
I wonder how long that paint would last on them and what it would look like after a few weeks in those conditions? Anyone have any photographic evidence of the tracks and their paint? The dust of N. Africa is so incredibly pervasive, it's often hard to distinguish between paint and dirt.
swathdiver
Joined: October 23, 2007
KitMaker: 10 posts
Armorama: 9 posts
Posted: Monday, January 05, 2009 - 05:42 AM UTC
The 501st was assigned 2 replacement tanks in March but they never made it past Sicily. They were given to the 504th and are probably the tanks seen that had no markings on them.
I'm fairly new to painting and weathering but I would imaging that you could make the dunkelgelb look faded and weathered and then resemble RAL8000.
Time Life and Google are posting pictures online. If you type in "el guettar source:life" into google you'll come up with photos of the Tiger graveyard at Beja. There's some debate whether this is El Guettar but that place was more arid, at least when viewed from Google Earth! Anyhow, you'll see photos of a soldier putting blocks of TNT under a Tiger and several photos of the same tank upside down and blown to bits, that's the famous 142 Tiger. Clearly it wasn't green and had a camoflage pattern on the side even though the color looks off(7008?) with the soldier getting ready to blow it up. Now my dilema has been is it 8020 or 8000? 7027 or 7008 or a combination?
The colors are definitely off in that PZIII N at the docks photo. However I've been able to identify those as 501 tanks by the "crouching tiger" on the glacis and gave up trying to figure out the turret number. Looks like 201. Also saw a "W" on the middle of the glacis on the bottom tank, not sure what that meant.
Also note that all the tracks were painted the base color, not just the spares. Speaking of spares, only the front plate tracks were installed at this point, the others were added later and probably not painted.
I'm fairly new to painting and weathering but I would imaging that you could make the dunkelgelb look faded and weathered and then resemble RAL8000.
Time Life and Google are posting pictures online. If you type in "el guettar source:life" into google you'll come up with photos of the Tiger graveyard at Beja. There's some debate whether this is El Guettar but that place was more arid, at least when viewed from Google Earth! Anyhow, you'll see photos of a soldier putting blocks of TNT under a Tiger and several photos of the same tank upside down and blown to bits, that's the famous 142 Tiger. Clearly it wasn't green and had a camoflage pattern on the side even though the color looks off(7008?) with the soldier getting ready to blow it up. Now my dilema has been is it 8020 or 8000? 7027 or 7008 or a combination?
The colors are definitely off in that PZIII N at the docks photo. However I've been able to identify those as 501 tanks by the "crouching tiger" on the glacis and gave up trying to figure out the turret number. Looks like 201. Also saw a "W" on the middle of the glacis on the bottom tank, not sure what that meant.
Also note that all the tracks were painted the base color, not just the spares. Speaking of spares, only the front plate tracks were installed at this point, the others were added later and probably not painted.
bill_c
Campaigns AdministratorJoined: January 09, 2008
KitMaker: 10,553 posts
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Posted: Sunday, January 04, 2009 - 11:19 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Someone else wrote about using Dunkelgelb for a 501 tiger. No 501 Tigers were painted in Dunkelgelb in Tunisia.
That would be me. What about a replacement vehicle after the switch to DG?
If not, I'm $#@$ed! Any suggestions how to repaint a weathered/pigmented kit????
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 03:43 PM UTC
James,
Thanks for your additional information...and you may be right about the colors being switched around considering that the RAL 8020 would've been the base coat...even in Charles' better quality photo the color saturation is off and could be producing the different contrasts. I've just completed my paint work using the Testors RAL 8020 and RAL 7027 and they are a close match to what you've got shown on your Tiger and III N.
Derek,
Would you mine posting up the edited photo that you've achieved? Monitor settings and all can play tricks with things but I'd still be interested in seeing what it looks like with the way you've adjusted the white point.
Thanks for your additional information...and you may be right about the colors being switched around considering that the RAL 8020 would've been the base coat...even in Charles' better quality photo the color saturation is off and could be producing the different contrasts. I've just completed my paint work using the Testors RAL 8020 and RAL 7027 and they are a close match to what you've got shown on your Tiger and III N.
Derek,
Would you mine posting up the edited photo that you've achieved? Monitor settings and all can play tricks with things but I'd still be interested in seeing what it looks like with the way you've adjusted the white point.
toyz4boyz
Joined: May 01, 2007
KitMaker: 44 posts
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KitMaker: 44 posts
Armorama: 43 posts
Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 12:11 PM UTC
I copied the image of the car into Photoshop and reset the white point (to me the original has a bluish cast to it...). With all the caveats, I think that the darker of the two colours almost looks like Field Grey (or a Greenish-grey) than a brown/tan tone.
In my very humble opinion...
Derek
In my very humble opinion...
Derek
swathdiver
Joined: October 23, 2007
KitMaker: 10 posts
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 10:03 AM UTC
Bill, IMO you've reversed color assignments, the grayer color, the disruptive pattern is RAL7027 while the yellowish color is RAL8020 which was the base.
Someone else wrote about using Dunkelgelb for a 501 tiger. No 501 Tigers were painted in Dunkelgelb in Tunisia, none of the 504 Tigers either.
Based on color photographs they were 8020/7027, 8000 or 7008. I have amassed a collection of color and b&w photographs of the 501st showing the camouflage on many of their Tigers and PZIIIs.
I've done some of my 501 tanks with Xtracrylix 8020/7027 and am planning to do the next pair using 8000/7008.
I'm happy to share my research and participate in discussions. I moderate the 501 section at Tiger in Focus, http://www.tiif.de/ and my stomping grounds are on the RC Universe Tank Forum
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/searchpro.asp?phrase=panzerkampfwagen&fuzzyMatch=on&author=swathdiver&forumid=369&topicreply=combined&message=both&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&language=single&top=500&criteria=AND&minRank=0&sortMethod=d&submitbutton=+OK+
Ohh, the chips I've seen of Lifecolor's 8020 do not look accurate at all. Some have said that Xtracrylix's isn't right either but that's what these two tanks are painted with.
Someone else wrote about using Dunkelgelb for a 501 tiger. No 501 Tigers were painted in Dunkelgelb in Tunisia, none of the 504 Tigers either.
Based on color photographs they were 8020/7027, 8000 or 7008. I have amassed a collection of color and b&w photographs of the 501st showing the camouflage on many of their Tigers and PZIIIs.
I've done some of my 501 tanks with Xtracrylix 8020/7027 and am planning to do the next pair using 8000/7008.
I'm happy to share my research and participate in discussions. I moderate the 501 section at Tiger in Focus, http://www.tiif.de/ and my stomping grounds are on the RC Universe Tank Forum
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/searchpro.asp?phrase=panzerkampfwagen&fuzzyMatch=on&author=swathdiver&forumid=369&topicreply=combined&message=both&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&language=single&top=500&criteria=AND&minRank=0&sortMethod=d&submitbutton=+OK+
Ohh, the chips I've seen of Lifecolor's 8020 do not look accurate at all. Some have said that Xtracrylix's isn't right either but that's what these two tanks are painted with.
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 06:59 AM UTC
Jon,
Yet another excellent example. What's particularly of interest is how it virtually disappears under the heavy dust coating and there's no readily apparent Panzer Gray chipping showing through. It's also intersting to see the crew helmets have been painted in the same RAL 8020. Thanks for sharing.
Yet another excellent example. What's particularly of interest is how it virtually disappears under the heavy dust coating and there's no readily apparent Panzer Gray chipping showing through. It's also intersting to see the crew helmets have been painted in the same RAL 8020. Thanks for sharing.
Tommy2Thumbs
Joined: February 01, 2004
KitMaker: 43 posts
Armorama: 42 posts
Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 06:13 AM UTC
There is a pic of a Kubel on the Bundesarchiv site that may show 8020/7027.
Usual caveats apply, old film etc etc:
Usual caveats apply, old film etc etc:
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 04:29 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Bill,
In a nutshell your remark concerning "sacred cows" is right on the money! Color is one of the most misunderstood and debated elements in our hobby. Color matching and color contrasts such as the colors presented here also add to the fire. I think that making slight adjustments to the colors to obtain definite contrasts between the colors but staying within the tonal color range of the colors and having the contrast remain between the colors after the weathering is the real trick here!
-Eddy
Depending on the base colors you started with, I think it's entirely possible to "come close" if you were inclined to mix your own. Here's how the actual Testors colors compare to each other for the two schemes.
'41 Scheme RAL8000/RAL7008
'42 Scheme RAL8020/RAL7027
The Testors RAL 8020 is very light...here's what it looks like by itself without the second tone...it's almost got a sand-pink tone to it, but after seeing Charles' photo, I think it's dead-on. (ignore the fact it's a '42 color on a Pz I...I didn't pay much attention to this before recently...just went with what I thought looked "good"
). 
And this is how the Testors RAL 8000 looks as a basecoat...much more of a brown/tan/buff color vs. the RAL 8020. Ironically, this is the color that should be on the Pz I and vice versa...funny how things work out.
I haven't used their RAL 7008 or RAL 7027 colors before so can't show how those look since I'd always assumed that they were variations of the one color and not meant to be used together in a combined scheme.
That's one of the reasons why I'm so curious to see how these will actually look once combined with the appropriate darker color. 
Braille
#135
Joined: August 05, 2007
KitMaker: 1,501 posts
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Posted: Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 07:10 PM UTC
Quoted Text
I remember the first time I saw a France 1940 vehicle painted in two-tone scheme and the discussion it aroused...sometimes the "sacred cows" need to be challenged though...I'm thinking of trying out this two-tone approach with my next build, perhaps a Pz IV F2, and see how it goes. What's interesting to me is that it's something that's easily and clearly documented as being the case all over the 'net (do a Google search for panzer colors and many sites repeat the orders for the different style of 2-tone schemes)...but the absence of actual finished models sporting the scheme is probably the biggest factor in why it's not "accepted" as correct vs. the "accepted" monotone and chipped panzer gray scheme.
Bill,
In a nutshell your remark concerning "sacred cows" is right on the money! Color is one of the most misunderstood and debated elements in our hobby. Color matching and color contrasts such as the colors presented here also add to the fire. I think that making slight adjustments to the colors to obtain definite contrasts between the colors but staying within the tonal color range of the colors and having the contrast remain between the colors after the weathering is the real trick here!
-Eddy
Owsi
Joined: September 24, 2005
KitMaker: 39 posts
Armorama: 35 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 09:25 AM UTC
[quote]
Yeah, I missed that they lack that one. Just now looking for an equivalent on the Vallejo website I found this. It is a pretty comprehensive guide of equivalencies between RAL, RLM, Vallejo, Testors, Gunze, Humbrol and others.
Matt
Quoted Text
...so it would appear that the only full range of available colors in acrylics is Lifecolor or Xtracolor. Vallejo has the earlier '41 schemes but not the '42 (missing RAL 7027) based on the link that Owsi posted.
Yeah, I missed that they lack that one. Just now looking for an equivalent on the Vallejo website I found this. It is a pretty comprehensive guide of equivalencies between RAL, RLM, Vallejo, Testors, Gunze, Humbrol and others.
Matt
wbill76
Joined: May 02, 2006
KitMaker: 5,425 posts
Armorama: 4,659 posts
Posted: Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 03:12 AM UTC
Quoted Text
Lifecolor "German WWII Tanks Set 1" has RAL 8000, 8020, and 7027. Lifecolor "German WWII Tanks Set 2" contains RAL 7008. Both sets together have 12 colors to cover all schemes from 1935 to 1945. I've used Lifecolor airbrushed and brush painted and I highly recommend it.
Matt,
That's great to know...so it would appear that the only full range of available colors in acrylics is Lifecolor or Xtracolor. Vallejo has the earlier '41 schemes but not the '42 (missing RAL 7027) based on the link that Owsi posted. Testors has the full range in enamels but not in their acrylic line. http://www.testors.com/category/136645?n=0
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