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DAK Two Tone Or Not Two Tone...
wbill76
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Posted: Monday, December 15, 2008 - 06:22 AM UTC
Since the question of accuracy in paint finishes has arisen in relation to the question of red oxide primer being used in late 1944...the question of other schemes and their application also got me thinking. In particular, why do we not see two-tone schemes applied to DAK/N. Afrika vehicles? DAK subjects have become very popular as candidates for heavy weathering similar to white-wash schemes for the Eastern Front, yet almost universally all you see applied are single tone "desert yellow" type schemes usually with Panzer Gray chipping showing through. Now, I'll be the first to admit that this creates a very aesthetically pleasing contrast and individuals have produced some superb examples using this model...but the real question remains...why does the two-tone scheme get neglected to the extent that it does?

We know from photographic evidence such as this photo on Achtung Panzer that there were indeed vehicles sent to N. Africa in the original Panzer Gray when the first units were dispatched in Feb of 1941.



We also know that it was common for vehicles, such as this one below, to have mud applied over the panzer gray to help disguise it. (Photo taken from http://www.afrikakorps.org site).



It's commonly cited on many sites on the 'net and in numerous books that the Tropen schemes ordered as of March 1941 were that all vehicles being sent to N. Africa were to be painted with a base color of RAL 8000 gelbbraun with patches of RAL 7008 graugrun covering 1/3 of the vehicle. For vehicles already in theater, the panzer gray was to be over painted (why you often see the gray patch under the DAK symbol or unit markings). This stayed in effect until March of 1942 when the scheme was switched to RAL 8020 braun and 1/3 grau RAL 7027. So the question is, with these orders in place, why do modelers not finish Afrika vehicles in two tones?

My guess is that the contrast between the two colors (even though the names suggest theres should be higher contrasts...we know the names assigned can be misleading vs. the actual colors) don't show up under dust or in b/w photos and so the assumption is that all N. Afrika vehicles were two-tone schemes.

Take for example the color chips from the afrikakorps.org site:


And compare them to the Testors Model Master site showing the same colors and matching them up to RAL codes where Afrikabraun=RAL 8020, Afrika Dunkelgray = RAL7027, Afrika Grunbraun=RAL 8000, and Afrika Khakibraun=RAL 7008:
http://www.testors.com/category/136417/WWII_German_Panzer_Colors

If you overlay those two tones together as called for in the orders and then add dust on top for good measure...the photos would show just a single monotone color underneath I think? Is this why we don't see color finishes incorporating the two-tone schemes as ordered for Tropen schemes in Afrika as a standard among model builders? Is it also why we see only one color used from 1941 to 1943 regardless of vehicle type or year of introduction so that schemes are the same whether it's a Pz I or a Pz IV F(2)?



toyz4boyz
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Posted: Monday, December 15, 2008 - 02:15 PM UTC
You've presented a good argument/question!

Is it possible that the darker pigment faded significantly in the desert sun, so after a short while the two tones were virtually indistinguishable?

Or was there a shortage of one of the paints?

Or the lighter tone was appreciably darkened when painted over the standard grey. (the first use of filters..hehe! )

:-?

regards

Derek

wbill76
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Posted: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 03:41 AM UTC

Quoted Text

You've presented a good argument/question!

Is it possible that the darker pigment faded significantly in the desert sun, so after a short while the two tones were virtually indistinguishable?

Or was there a shortage of one of the paints?

Or the lighter tone was appreciably darkened when painted over the standard grey. (the first use of filters..hehe! )

:-?

regards

Derek




Given how close the two tones are to each other in shade whether it's the RAL 8000/7008 or the RAL 8020/7027 combination, I can understand why b/w photos would seem to show a single paint tone. My real question though is why it is that modelers don't attempt to replicate a true two-tone finish knowing that they were actually used?

My guesses would be that it's due to a variety of factors:

1) The entrenched perception of "Desert Yellow" that likely originated and endured with the Tamiya paint scheme recommendations or similar on older kits. I liken this to the very entrenched prevailing wisdom that Polish and French Campaign vehicles were only finished in panzer gray (instead of the correct two-tone scheme of panzer gray and dark brown in use up until June 1940). The orders seem to be pretty clear though...there are specific "Tropen" schemes called for but you virtually never see these used on actual model finishes.

2) Lack of clear photo evidence showing a two-tone scheme to counter-act #1 above...almost universally DAK photos look like one color schemes...especially if the vehicle has been on the march recently and sports a good coat of dust.

3) The allure of the "desert white wash" type of finish that allows for aggressive chipping and weathering on the assumption that paint was applied over the panzer gray throughout the N. Afrika campaign. Some very impressive examples are out there, particularly with the advent of the "hairspray" technique recently.

4) Replication/immitation of #3 by many modelers.

5) Conflation of "mud applied" camo with actual paint schemes.

What's of interest to me is the fact that the trend overall is to finish all N. Afrika vehicles in the same fashion, just like a white wash, meaning that the same basecoat color is applied and then chipped/weathered aggressively to show panzer gray underneath regardles of vehicle type and time/context. As near as I've been able to determine, only vehicles sent in the first 1-2 months would've been sent in the original panzer gray and then on units destined for N. Afrika were painted int the appropriate Tropen scheme prior to shipment (RAL8000/7008 March '41 to March '42, RAL 8020/7027 March '42 to May '43 when N. Afrika campaign ended). Photos abound of Pz IIIs being off-loaded from freighters for example that show they clearly aren't in panzer gray when they arrive, yet the assumption that DAK vehicles of all types should be chipped down to panzer gray regardless of context endures.

Now, having said that, I know there are pics out there showing scruffy looking DAK vehicles (the above photo of the 8-rad shows a perfect example), but how did that become the "norm" by which all vehicles are now finished?
wbill76
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Posted: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 04:11 AM UTC
Digging around a bit, I came across this color photo from 1942 showing Pz III N's being offloaded in N. Afrika. All photos are from Trojca's Pzkpfw III and are for discussion purposes only.



Notice the contrasts on the foreground vehicle in relation to the uniforms and the panzer gray of the trucks on the dock. These are brand-new vehicles delivered as part of the sPzAbt 501 deployment.

Taking a closer look at the foreground vehicle, there's a clear indication it's wearing a two-tone Tropen scheme literally fresh off the boat as it's in the process of being offloaded when the photo was taken.



At first I thought it might be due to possible damage to the negative or to color saturation/aging over time....but looking closer, it's clear to me this vehicle is wearing a two-tone Tropen scheme...RAL 8020/RAL7027 in keeping with the 1942 deployment timeframe for the sPzAbt 501. The pattern is clearly evident on the fenders, the glacis, and the front hull plate and even looks to have carried over onto the spare track run as well. You can also see a clear contrast on the spare wheel vs. the fender color on the left hand fender.



My interpretation of the RAL colors is based on the light vs. dark contrast...is it possible that the color saturation has distorted things to the point that this is where the "desert yellow" color comes from? Clearly from looking at this pic alone you could assume that there's a very "yellowish" color in play...but it doesn't match any of the RAL color codes for the schemes as ordered.

And just to throw another item into the mix...what about this Pz III J that's often cited as an example of a "Tropen" scheme vehicle destined for N. Afrika but sent to Russia instead...is it wearing a Tropen scheme of RAL 8000/7008 instead of the assumed mix of panzer gray and dunkelgelb?



emroglan
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Posted: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 04:37 AM UTC
As to why many modelers do not care about the two tone painting order... I think the answer is simple Bill, many modelers like to take a freeride.

What I mean by that is a lot of modelers do not have the patience/the funds/ the time to obtain all historical information. Instead, they want to get right down to business and assemble and paint the model on their work benches. Now, since internet has made tons of information available, they do not want to risk making great errors, so they turn to the best alternative for obtaining dependable information: modelers who have built the same model before. I have seen this trend a lot locally and sadly enough if a "popular" modeler is making some basic mistakes on his models, those mistakes were very finely replicated by others who were building a kit of the same vehicle. Whatever you might say or do, freeriding is free, easy and generally gets acceptable results. As a result, people who just want to assemble their model quickly follow this route.

As for the rest of the discussion, I am following with real interest. Guess if I paint a DAK vehicle in two colors (and not in sand brown and panzer grey), I might really start a discussion here in Turkey ("Oh no, all Dak panzers are sand brown, Emre's tank is DEFINITELY wrong!" is one of the criticisms I will receive, that's for sure!).
bill_c
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Posted: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 04:41 AM UTC
One challenge with replicating these colors is that only Testors offers them in readily-obtainable products, and the Testors paint is enamel. MIG pigments can't be applied to enamels, or it "eats" the finish. You can, of course, coat the paints with a flat spray to offset that problem.

I have looked at color comparison charts until my eyes cross. I believe Humbrol has equivalents, but Humbrols are harder to come up with and are themselves enamels. The Tamiya colors are approximates in several cases.
wbill76
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Posted: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 08:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

As to why many modelers do not care about the two tone painting order... I think the answer is simple Bill, many modelers like to take a freeride.



I can understand that...human nature is such that if a simpler/easier way exists they will take it. That's the thing that has me kind of curious though...is it really simple laziness or lack of awareness of the need of a two-tone scheme itself that's to blame?


Quoted Text

What I mean by that is a lot of modelers do not have the patience/the funds/ the time to obtain all historical information. Instead, they want to get right down to business and assemble and paint the model on their work benches. Now, since internet has made tons of information available, they do not want to risk making great errors, so they turn to the best alternative for obtaining dependable information: modelers who have built the same model before. I have seen this trend a lot locally and sadly enough if a "popular" modeler is making some basic mistakes on his models, those mistakes were very finely replicated by others who were building a kit of the same vehicle.



This I think is where you're on to something...the process got entrenched and replicated over and over and over....think about how many N. Afrika or DAK vehicles have appeared in magazines or online that showed a montone scheme and heavy chipping/weathering exposing a Panzer Gray scheme underneath?


Quoted Text

As for the rest of the discussion, I am following with real interest. Guess if I paint a DAK vehicle in two colors (and not in sand brown and panzer grey), I might really start a discussion here in Turkey ("Oh no, all Dak panzers are sand brown, Emre's tank is DEFINITELY wrong!" is one of the criticisms I will receive, that's for sure!).



I remember the first time I saw a France 1940 vehicle painted in two-tone scheme and the discussion it aroused...sometimes the "sacred cows" need to be challenged though...I'm thinking of trying out this two-tone approach with my next build, perhaps a Pz IV F2, and see how it goes. What's interesting to me is that it's something that's easily and clearly documented as being the case all over the 'net (do a Google search for panzer colors and many sites repeat the orders for the different style of 2-tone schemes)...but the absence of actual finished models sporting the scheme is probably the biggest factor in why it's not "accepted" as correct vs. the "accepted" monotone and chipped panzer gray scheme.

Which leads us to Bill C's point:


Quoted Text

One challenge with replicating these colors is that only Testors offers them in readily-obtainable products, and the Testors paint is enamel. MIG pigments can't be applied to enamels, or it "eats" the finish. You can, of course, coat the paints with a flat spray to offset that problem.

I have looked at color comparison charts until my eyes cross. I believe Humbrol has equivalents, but Humbrols are harder to come up with and are themselves enamels. The Tamiya colors are approximates in several cases.



The lack of suitable or suitably identified paints is no doubt a contributing factor. Even the Testor's line has a set of confusing names attached to them and the only thing that really makes it possible to ID them is that they thankfully include the RAL # in their catalog description. What's printed on the bottle however doesn't include that...just the name and either a '41 or '42 designation. How's that for confusing! I wonder if Testors also produces these in their acrylic line?

As far as not being able to use MIG pigments with enamel paints...that may be true if you're using MIG thinner to "fix" the pigments, but I use MIG stuff all the time on enamel finishes. Instead of thinner I use water (the acrylic vs. enamel situation in reverse). Alternatively you could also seal enamels with acrylic Future as a barrier (something else I do all the time).

Lack of readily available paints would certainly put a damper on people going for the 2-tone scheme...having to mix your own is a delicate business and points back to Emre's comment about laziness to a degree.
bellers
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Posted: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 11:41 AM UTC
hi bill my next build is going to be a DAK sfz 10 but wanted to like you said stay away from the single yellow color and go for a 2 tone but lak of pics was a problem .so these RAL colors are from achtung panzer .1942 RAL8020 AND 7021 so i matched them to vallejo124 iraq sand and 166 dark grey with 123 dark sand for a highlight for 124.but yes why people have not 2 toned DAK panzers befor .lak of pics may be .but they also used enemy paint so an even more range of colors could be used.
Damraska
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Posted: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 02:20 PM UTC

Quoted Text

In particular, why do we not see two-tone schemes applied to DAK/N. Afrika vehicles?



I am proud to say that the one and only DAK vehicle in my collection--a 1/72 Panzer IV F2--wears hard edge, two tone tropical camouflage using the Testors colors. It was built before I really knew how to weather and thus very clean. From a distance of 5 feet, or in poor light, it looks like a single color.

I think more experienced hands have already answered the question well and correctly. Knowledge of the two tone schemes is not very widespread. What looks good gets copied and eventually becomes entrenched. Relatively few modelers do extensive research or keep abreast of the latest findings. When a modeler does use a two tone tropical scheme, weathering makes it difficult to discern.

I also have the Trojca Panzer III opus and came to the same conclusion after seeing that picture--those Panzer IIIs are in two tone tropical.

-Doug
Removed by original poster on 12/17/08 - 03:24:24 (GMT).
CReading
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Posted: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 - 03:33 PM UTC
This is a slightly clearer photo of the PZ III's being unloaded. You can see the delineation between the two colors.
Sorry about the deleted post...couldn't get the photo to show.



Cheers,
Charles
wbill76
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Posted: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 03:14 AM UTC
That is a much better photo Charles and demonstrates very clearly the two-tone difference on these 1942 scheme Pz III Ns. When I saw the Testors colors (I have the actual bottles for all 4 colors on the work bench) for RAL 8020 I was skeptical that it was the right tone, but your photo confirms it really is that light. It's interesting to see that the road wheels seem to have been painted in the darker color of 7027 (both the spares on the fender and the mounted wheels in profile on the background vehicle) and that same darker color seems to have been applied to the lower hull as the dominant color. There are patches of the RAL 8020 visible on the lower hull of the vehicle in profile, so it would seem that the pattern extended down below the fenders. This is going to help tremendously on my next project.

Thanks very much for posting this.
wbill76
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Posted: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 03:28 AM UTC

Quoted Text



I am proud to say that the one and only DAK vehicle in my collection--a 1/72 Panzer IV F2--wears hard edge, two tone tropical camouflage using the Testors colors. It was built before I really knew how to weather and thus very clean. From a distance of 5 feet, or in poor light, it looks like a single color.



This is something that I'm looking forward to seeing myself as to how the two-tone comes out once painted...both to the eye and to the camera. My curiosity has been raised to the point that I've already made up my mind it will be the center-piece of my next project. Who says the forums can't be inspiring?


Quoted Text

I think more experienced hands have already answered the question well and correctly. Knowledge of the two tone schemes is not very widespread. What looks good gets copied and eventually becomes entrenched. Relatively few modelers do extensive research or keep abreast of the latest findings. When a modeler does use a two tone tropical scheme, weathering makes it difficult to discern.



I have to admit myself to having not paid much attention to this for a long time...for example in the past year I built the DML sPzAbt 501 Pz III N and finished it in a monotone scheme. I've never had much of an interest in that particular theater but I do have several kits that are appropriate to it in the stash...and in doing research or general reading, I kept coming across the references to the two-tone but have never myself actually seen it on a finished model. That, along with the discussions that have been going on in a separate thread about red oxide primer, led me to wonder why something that was theoretically only possible for a few short months (3-6 months depending on interpretation) could cause so much discussion but schemes that were in use (with some variation) over an almost 2.5 year timespan (March '41 to May '43) don't get used. Maybe because it doesn't involve Panthers and only a very small number of Tigers?

I've read about the use of two-tone many times over the years but 1) absence of photos showing it clearly delineated as with other multi-tone schemes, 2) lack of references on kit-supplied finishing guides, and 3) lack of finished models as, well, a "model" to follow resulted in my general impression that what would look "right" would be a monotone scheme.
bill_c
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Posted: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 03:44 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Who says the forums can't be inspiring?


I am working on a sPA 501 Tunisia 1943 dio and will now include a Tiger in Dunkelgelb, plus one and a Pz. III in the two-tone variations (older tanks with new, replacement vehicle). The water with pigment is an interesting concept, though the acrylic paints take the pigs very well. Don't know if the Testors will.

I think the paint is a real issue here, and Tamiya could go a long way towards upping its relevence in the market by reformulating its color palatte to include the accurate shades. It's very rare to find a Tamiya paint corresponding to an RAL scheme in any table.
wbill76
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Posted: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 07:25 AM UTC

Quoted Text

I think the paint is a real issue here, and Tamiya could go a long way towards upping its relevence in the market by reformulating its color palatte to include the accurate shades. It's very rare to find a Tamiya paint corresponding to an RAL scheme in any table.



That's a good point as well Bill...and one of the reasons why perhaps finishing guides in kits also don't really reference the two-tone? If suitable paints aren't available in the "preferred" range of paints, then the kit makers will default to the next best thing in the recommendations they make...I recall examples of dunkelgelb being referred to as "middle stone" for example in one kit.

I'm not all that familiar with the acrylic paint lines out there...does Vallejo or Lifecolor offer RAL-referenced colors and if so, do they include the necessary two-tone N. Afrika colors? If not, this would seem to be a prime opportunity perhaps.
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Posted: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 10:48 AM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text



I'm not all that familiar with the acrylic paint lines out there...does Vallejo or Lifecolor offer RAL-referenced colors and if so, do they include the necessary two-tone N. Afrika colors? If not, this would seem to be a prime opportunity perhaps.



Here is a link to a page that I found while doing research. It gives paint codes for several types of paint that approximate the RAL codes, including Vallejo. It lists Vallejo equivalents for both 7008 and 8000.
SSGToms
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Posted: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 01:35 PM UTC
Lifecolor "German WWII Tanks Set 1" has RAL 8000, 8020, and 7027. Lifecolor "German WWII Tanks Set 2" contains RAL 7008. Both sets together have 12 colors to cover all schemes from 1935 to 1945. I've used Lifecolor airbrushed and brush painted and I highly recommend it.
CReading
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Posted: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 - 01:45 PM UTC

Quoted Text

That is a much better photo Charles ....................Thanks very much for posting this.



My pleasure.
Cheers,
Charles
wbill76
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Posted: Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 03:12 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Lifecolor "German WWII Tanks Set 1" has RAL 8000, 8020, and 7027. Lifecolor "German WWII Tanks Set 2" contains RAL 7008. Both sets together have 12 colors to cover all schemes from 1935 to 1945. I've used Lifecolor airbrushed and brush painted and I highly recommend it.



Matt,

That's great to know...so it would appear that the only full range of available colors in acrylics is Lifecolor or Xtracolor. Vallejo has the earlier '41 schemes but not the '42 (missing RAL 7027) based on the link that Owsi posted. Testors has the full range in enamels but not in their acrylic line. http://www.testors.com/category/136645?n=0
Owsi
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Posted: Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 09:25 AM UTC
[quote]
Quoted Text

...so it would appear that the only full range of available colors in acrylics is Lifecolor or Xtracolor. Vallejo has the earlier '41 schemes but not the '42 (missing RAL 7027) based on the link that Owsi posted.



Yeah, I missed that they lack that one. Just now looking for an equivalent on the Vallejo website I found this. It is a pretty comprehensive guide of equivalencies between RAL, RLM, Vallejo, Testors, Gunze, Humbrol and others.

Matt
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Posted: Thursday, December 18, 2008 - 07:10 PM UTC

Quoted Text

I remember the first time I saw a France 1940 vehicle painted in two-tone scheme and the discussion it aroused...sometimes the "sacred cows" need to be challenged though...I'm thinking of trying out this two-tone approach with my next build, perhaps a Pz IV F2, and see how it goes. What's interesting to me is that it's something that's easily and clearly documented as being the case all over the 'net (do a Google search for panzer colors and many sites repeat the orders for the different style of 2-tone schemes)...but the absence of actual finished models sporting the scheme is probably the biggest factor in why it's not "accepted" as correct vs. the "accepted" monotone and chipped panzer gray scheme.



Bill,

In a nutshell your remark concerning "sacred cows" is right on the money! Color is one of the most misunderstood and debated elements in our hobby. Color matching and color contrasts such as the colors presented here also add to the fire. I think that making slight adjustments to the colors to obtain definite contrasts between the colors but staying within the tonal color range of the colors and having the contrast remain between the colors after the weathering is the real trick here!

-Eddy
wbill76
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Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 04:29 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Bill,

In a nutshell your remark concerning "sacred cows" is right on the money! Color is one of the most misunderstood and debated elements in our hobby. Color matching and color contrasts such as the colors presented here also add to the fire. I think that making slight adjustments to the colors to obtain definite contrasts between the colors but staying within the tonal color range of the colors and having the contrast remain between the colors after the weathering is the real trick here!

-Eddy



Depending on the base colors you started with, I think it's entirely possible to "come close" if you were inclined to mix your own. Here's how the actual Testors colors compare to each other for the two schemes.

'41 Scheme RAL8000/RAL7008



'42 Scheme RAL8020/RAL7027



The Testors RAL 8020 is very light...here's what it looks like by itself without the second tone...it's almost got a sand-pink tone to it, but after seeing Charles' photo, I think it's dead-on. (ignore the fact it's a '42 color on a Pz I...I didn't pay much attention to this before recently...just went with what I thought looked "good" ).



And this is how the Testors RAL 8000 looks as a basecoat...much more of a brown/tan/buff color vs. the RAL 8020. Ironically, this is the color that should be on the Pz I and vice versa...funny how things work out.



I haven't used their RAL 7008 or RAL 7027 colors before so can't show how those look since I'd always assumed that they were variations of the one color and not meant to be used together in a combined scheme. That's one of the reasons why I'm so curious to see how these will actually look once combined with the appropriate darker color.
Tommy2Thumbs
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Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 06:13 AM UTC
There is a pic of a Kubel on the Bundesarchiv site that may show 8020/7027.

Usual caveats apply, old film etc etc:
wbill76
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Posted: Friday, December 19, 2008 - 06:59 AM UTC
Jon,

Yet another excellent example. What's particularly of interest is how it virtually disappears under the heavy dust coating and there's no readily apparent Panzer Gray chipping showing through. It's also intersting to see the crew helmets have been painted in the same RAL 8020. Thanks for sharing.
swathdiver
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Posted: Saturday, January 03, 2009 - 10:03 AM UTC
Bill, IMO you've reversed color assignments, the grayer color, the disruptive pattern is RAL7027 while the yellowish color is RAL8020 which was the base.

Someone else wrote about using Dunkelgelb for a 501 tiger. No 501 Tigers were painted in Dunkelgelb in Tunisia, none of the 504 Tigers either.

Based on color photographs they were 8020/7027, 8000 or 7008. I have amassed a collection of color and b&w photographs of the 501st showing the camouflage on many of their Tigers and PZIIIs.

I've done some of my 501 tanks with Xtracrylix 8020/7027 and am planning to do the next pair using 8000/7008.





I'm happy to share my research and participate in discussions. I moderate the 501 section at Tiger in Focus, http://www.tiif.de/ and my stomping grounds are on the RC Universe Tank Forum
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/searchpro.asp?phrase=panzerkampfwagen&fuzzyMatch=on&author=swathdiver&forumid=369&topicreply=combined&message=both&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&language=single&top=500&criteria=AND&minRank=0&sortMethod=d&submitbutton=+OK+

Ohh, the chips I've seen of Lifecolor's 8020 do not look accurate at all. Some have said that Xtracrylix's isn't right either but that's what these two tanks are painted with.
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