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Dutch NATO camouflage question.
Henk
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England - South West, United Kingdom
Joined: August 07, 2004
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 02:50 AM UTC
Hi all,

I'm nearly done with the new HobbyBoss Leopard 2A5/A6 NL , and I'm hoping to start painting soon. Now I have been pouring over a lot of reference pictures lately, as you do, but I noticed that a lot of Leopards seem to lack the NATO Brown from the camouflage. I realise that the difference between NATO Brown and NATO Green is minimal, but even in very close-ups, a number of Leo's seem to have only NATO Black over NATO Green. Is there a reason for this , is this down to the crew, or is the Brown not used much because there is so little contrast with the Green?


Jupiterblitz
Joined: December 30, 2007
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 06:14 AM UTC
Hello Henk,

I have not seen a Dutch Leo without its standard 3-tone-camo and I have no clue why some have not them.

Usually the Swedish Strv 122 has got no brown pattern.

I know that within the Bundeswehr the crews prefer to cover the brown pattern when they apply the winter camo with whiting (Schlämmkreide).

In Middle Europe the NATO-camo with three colors is quite senseful.

Have you some pics of such a two-tone vehicle we could take a look at?
Straniero
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Cosenza, Italy
Joined: December 20, 2008
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 06:36 AM UTC
Here are some pictures of a firing match between 11 Tank Bat. RHvS (Regiment Huzaren van Sytzama) and 42 Tank Bat RHPO (Regiment Huzaren Prins van Oranje). As far as is possible to see they all have three tone camo.
http://www.sytzama.nl/syt11tkbx.html
I don't remember ever seeing the Dutch Armed Forces in anything other than three tone - except when I served with the Signals Corps, when everything was still Nato Olive.

Hope these pictures help!
Sudzonic
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Scotland, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 06:44 AM UTC
I have loads of pics of dutch leos on may hard drive i have a look to see if there ones in the to tone cant say i have ever seen them in anything other than the three tone NATO camo?
mat
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Limburg, Netherlands
Joined: November 18, 2003
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 06:53 AM UTC
as far as I know only some a4's were painted in olive only, all other Leo's were painted 3 tone.

Maybe it was a special paint job ? I've seen pics of an a4 with the Dutch flag painted on the rear engine louvres, or during the last European Soccer Cup one totally in orange.

Show me a pic, I'm nieuwsgierig

Matthijs
Sudzonic
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 07:15 AM UTC
Hay henk are you sure it was not one of these the danish leo 2s are two tone green and black?

Photobucket
LeoCmdr
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 01:15 PM UTC
Henk,

Are you sure you are looking just at Dutch Leopard 2A5/A6NLs?
Henk
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 02:57 PM UTC
Thanks for all your replies guys, much appreciated.

I suppose that the majority will be painted, in accordence with the regulations, in the three tone camo. It is tricky trying to judge this from photos, because the contrast between the Green and Brown is not very big at the best of times, let alone when you add wear and dirt.

There is this for example, I see no Brown in this picture. The vehicle is Dutch, despite the GE manouvre marking on the side.



Still, I accept that my eyes are more than likely fooled by my monitor, and I'll take the opinion of those of you who have seen (or indeed are..) them 'in the flesh'. I just wondered if the crews would have not bothered with the Brown, but that does not seem to be the case.

Funny, we were not allowed to camouflage our Land Rovers (1989-90) , ons Kader was not impressed when we did (we were rather bored at the time... ) ....

Thanks
Henk
Jupiterblitz
Joined: December 30, 2007
KitMaker: 885 posts
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 03:09 PM UTC
Hello Henk,

I do not know if that really reassures you but I can see the brown pattern e.g. right above the sprocket wheel.

(Somehow the red arrows I have drawn into are bad to see)

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us



Indeed the contrast of this pic is not very good...

emroglan
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Istanbul, Turkey / Türkçe
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 07:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Thanks for all your replies guys, much appreciated.

I suppose that the majority will be painted, in accordence with the regulations, in the three tone camo. It is tricky trying to judge this from photos, because the contrast between the Green and Brown is not very big at the best of times, let alone when you add wear and dirt.

There is this for example, I see no Brown in this picture. The vehicle is Dutch, despite the GE manouvre marking on the side.



Still, I accept that my eyes are more than likely fooled by my monitor, and I'll take the opinion of those of you who have seen (or indeed are..) them 'in the flesh'. I just wondered if the crews would have not bothered with the Brown, but that does not seem to be the case.

Funny, we were not allowed to camouflage our Land Rovers (1989-90) , ons Kader was not impressed when we did (we were rather bored at the time... ) ....

Thanks
Henk


Hi Henk,

As others pointed out, the brown in that picture is very visible and prominent. Are you using an old screen? If it is like my old one, it is logical you are not able to distinguish between colors and tones, my old one has got to the point where I could only see 16 colors (despite the fact that it was a full color screen!) and colors like red-orange-pink-brown all looked to be the same rosy color for example.
LeoCmdr
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 08:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

The vehicle is Dutch, despite the GE manouvre marking on the side.


The 'GE' marking on the side of the hull is a Dutch marking......it means the Dutch Leopard 2A6NL in the photo is stationed in Germany.......GE= Germany based.
Straniero
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Cosenza, Italy
Joined: December 20, 2008
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 09:28 PM UTC
With photo editing software you can always try to enhance contrast. If you use a high end program, you should be able to select rather exact colours in a picture and lighten / darken those so that they show up better. I see the brown clearly in this shot.
Henk
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England - South West, United Kingdom
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Posted: Friday, January 09, 2009 - 10:55 PM UTC

Quoted Text


The vehicle is Dutch, despite the GE manouvre marking on the side.



The 'GE' marking on the side of the hull is a Dutch marking......it means the Dutch Leopard 2A6NL in the photo is stationed in Germany.......GE= Germany based.


Thanks Jason, that was another question I was wondering about. I thought it had something to do with the 'merger' of the Dutch and German army. Goes to show how out of touch I am with todays affairs really... Things were much easier in the late 80's....

Thanks again for all your help. Actually, the colour thing is something that is possibly not just because of the screen. I have been what a Medical Examiner called 'colour deaf' for years, which manifested itself in an inability to make out the contrast between shapes and numbers on those coloured dots cards. But that was only with the Pastel colours (Yellow, PINK, light Red ETC). I was fine with darker colours. And I'm not colour blind as such either. Maybe I should have another eye test to check that. I had a 'normal' eye check recently (I'm a truck driver) and my vision is 20/20.

Any way, Three Tone it is...

Cheers
Henk
DeskJockey
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 01:58 AM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text


The vehicle is Dutch, despite the GE manouvre marking on the side.



The 'GE' marking on the side of the hull is a Dutch marking......it means the Dutch Leopard 2A6NL in the photo is stationed in Germany.......GE= Germany based.


Thanks Jason, that was another question I was wondering about. I thought it had something to do with the 'merger' of the Dutch and German army. Goes to show how out of touch I am with todays affairs really... Things were much easier in the late 80's....

Thanks again for all your help. Actually, the colour thing is something that is possibly not just because of the screen. I have been what a Medical Examiner called 'colour deaf' for years, which manifested itself in an inability to make out the contrast between shapes and numbers on those coloured dots cards. But that was only with the Pastel colours (Yellow, PINK, light Red ETC). I was fine with darker colours. And I'm not colour blind as such either. Maybe I should have another eye test to check that. I had a 'normal' eye check recently (I'm a truck driver) and my vision is 20/20.

Any way, Three Tone it is...

Cheers
Henk



Ahh! That most likely explains it, Henk. When you posted your picture I could instantly see the brown and wondred for a second if you were going crazy!

You probably have a mild type of color blindness that leads to difficulty distinguishing green and red hues. To my (non-doctor) eye, it's probably protanomaly or deuteranomaly. Check out the Wikipedia page on color blindness here to do a little self-diagnosis with the rainbow drawings and the numerals (about a page below the rainbows).

You may want to keep this in mind when looking at other reference photographs in future projects and asking a friend to double check what colors you see in the pictures.
LeoCmdr
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Alberta, Canada
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Posted: Saturday, January 10, 2009 - 05:06 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Things were much easier in the late 80's....


Actually, the Dutch have used GE on the sides of their tanks in Germany and NL on their tanks in Holland since the 1980s.

Good luck with your Leopard.....there are never enough Leopard projects on the go.
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